People First Communications with Jenn T. Grace, Jack Kinley, and Jennifer Brown 

[00:00:00] Jenn: [00:00:00] Hey, Jennifer, how are you? 

[00:00:03] Jennifer B: [00:00:03] Nathan. Grace. I’m hanging in there. I wish I could say to BIF, but it is Thursday feels like a second pump day. These days. 

[00:00:13] Jenn: [00:00:13] I think the whole week is a hump 

[00:00:14] Jennifer B: [00:00:14] day. I know. Oh, it’s a, it’s a marathon. I know. How are you doing? Well, 

[00:00:19] Jenn: [00:00:19] I feel like I’m okay. This week I’ve worked too much. I worked 60 hours last week and I’m already over 40 as of yesterday this week.

[00:00:25] So I just, I need to, I need a, I need it to be Friday as well. I’ll just put it that way. Yeah, 

[00:00:31] Jennifer B: [00:00:31] totally. I can’t wait for the weekend. 

[00:00:35] Jenn: [00:00:35] So we have our dear friend, Jackie Lee here with us today. How are you? 

[00:00:41] Jack: [00:00:41] It’s good to see you. I 

[00:00:43] Jenn: [00:00:43] know. 

[00:00:43] Jennifer B: [00:00:43] Good to see you too. We last were all together at the NGLCC conference chamber of commerce and it was in Tampa.

[00:00:52] Right. And it’s going to be in VR. It’s going to be in Vegas. Let’s hold out hope for that this year and end of July. But we are all certified [00:01:00] business owners. We’re very deeply involved with the NGLCC big fans and, um, yeah. And Jack, we’re really excited to talk to you today. You’re a communications professional, so.

[00:01:10] You talk about an important topic right now always has been important, but elevated importance right now. Um, in terms of your guidance of companies, new clients, but also for business owners, the big conundrum we’ve all faced, I think is we still have things to sell right now. And there are still. They’re very important things and very relevant things to perhaps, especially now, right?

[00:01:32] For me, this might be inclusion for you. It might be, you know, getting those communications just exactly right. So that they hit the right tone and they’re elevating the right support for people and Jen graves for you. I mean, you’re, you’re Republican company birth stories into the world. You know, and that I can’t personally imagine more important stuff.

[00:01:50] And yet we sort of have been hesitating as we were talking about, of, of, um, how to market right now and let people know that we’re [00:02:00] still here to support that in kind of really skills, kind of like very different. 

[00:02:06] Jenn: [00:02:06] Yeah. It’s like, it’s 

[00:02:07] Jennifer B: [00:02:07] just a different 

[00:02:07] Jenn: [00:02:07] landscape. And then I’ll hear from Jack in a second, but you know, last week why I worked so many hours on, well, it seemed unnecessary, but I had to get it done is that I just created a new program and I created it completely for free.

[00:02:20] So for anyone who’s trying to get their book written right now, and they’re just struggling with the organization or mindset or writing or whatever it might be. I just decided last week on a whim that I’m just going to create this new program and just give it away for free. So for me, that’s like my way of.

[00:02:34] Selling, if you will, right now, it’s not really selling. It’s just I’m giving because I feel like now is the time to be giving and coming from a place of service and abundance and gratitude. Even if we, as business owners on the backend, don’t fully feel that way the whole time

[00:02:51] Jennifer B: [00:02:51] equally afraid and worried. We maybe we’d be reinventing and rebuilding the plane. As we’re flying it 

[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Jenn: [00:03:00] as it’s cleaning into the top of some trees, 

[00:03:02] Jennifer B: [00:03:02] we are. Yes. We’re definitely like barely off the ground right now. Boom, boom, 

[00:03:06] Jack: [00:03:06] boom. 

[00:03:09] Jenn: [00:03:09] Subject. Where are you? What are you telling people? When you’re having conversations with folks who are feeling like they’re flying right into the top of the tree line?

[00:03:19] Jack: [00:03:19] Well, first I tell them that we are, I think that’s probably the most important thing is to really honor the truth that we are, where we are. And I can’t, I haven’t encountered anyone who has been here before. Um, we are. We’re in new territory. Um, okay. And as a communications professional, you know, my job is to go in when we are in new territory.

[00:03:45] So in some ways it’s not completely unfamiliar to be in the unfamiliar, um, and the same tools, um, or where we go. So we, we lean in [00:04:00] hard on, um, Let’s acknowledge the truth, that this is new and uncertain and strange. Um, but also let’s acknowledge that we’re all people having human experiences around this.

[00:04:13] And I think we can all connect to that. Um, you know, maybe. The, I don’t know, it’s the unifying aspect of this is that it’s affecting all of us around the entire world. Um, I can’t think of anyone who is. Above or removed or excluded from this experience. And I think we go there first with my clients. We, you know, we, we spend a solid, I want to say 75% of our time just commiserating and like holding each other up.

[00:04:47] And the remaining 25% of our time is developing strategies and crafting messaging. And honestly, there’s, there’s tremendous value in that. Um, I find myself giving away work [00:05:00] accidentally. Um, normally I wouldn’t be doing that. Um, but I love my clients and I love their employees and that’s why I do what I do.

[00:05:09] Um, last month we had a game plan for wellness communications for one of my favorite clients. Um, I do have favorites and. We just threw it out the window. It wasn’t the right time to lead with that message. Um, and we had already moved it to may for our main communications. Um, and then I just came up with brand new messaging around mental health and wellness for employees.

[00:05:38] Um, And just gave it to them. It was like, look, I don’t care. This didn’t take me that long. You got to go with this like run. I know you’ve got bigger fires to put out elsewhere. This is taken care of. And hopefully, you know, just remember I took care of it. We’ll come back to you. Um, and I did the right thing and I could, you know, [00:06:00] it’s hard to sleep at night right now.

[00:06:01] Um, but that helps a little. 

[00:06:04] Jennifer B: [00:06:04] Hmm. I love that community spirit of saying which we should all be doing. What can I do right now? That’s easier for me to do what can I do that is just like, Nothing for me, what can I contribute? And then having that be our guiding factor. And you know, when there, when people are in crisis, communicating is hard to do well.

[00:06:23] Right? It’s it’s I would imagine your competency. Doesn’t doesn’t go up. It goes down and. Then, so you’re, it’s so needed what you do to slow those leaders down, to be thoughtful, to maybe draft something, to write something, to literally give something to people. I see this a lot in my, my diversity consulting.

[00:06:41] The ERG is, are coming up with all these creative solutions for their companies and, you know, developing these and giving them. And then at this time leadership’s like, yes, run with it. Great. You know, the gratitude for that. I wish that had always been there. It’s interesting because we even kind of [00:07:00] advocating for the wisdom.

[00:07:01] The wisdom that lives in the diverse talent in every organization. You know, we all on this call know that that’s true, but right now, when you can solve somebody’s problem and address their pain point right away with what you do well, what is a competency for you? What the power of a community. You’re a part of that you can marshal for something it’s, um, Yeah, I don’t think it will go unnoticed Jack, to your point.

[00:07:24] I hope of the memory. Hey, Rick, over, we helped you. And as I was kind of trying to get, keep my company alive, you know, I was of service. Um, it’s a tricky spot we’re in isn’t it because we really care deeply about our clients and we want them to thrive. And, um, and yet we’re all feeling very personally scared.

[00:07:43] Um, I know the DNI leaders in my network are scared for their jobs. And at the same time, they’re trying to help the company navigate through this and be inclusive at the same time as they’re losing their own teams and they be maybe losing their own jobs. So it’s just this like really painful thing. Are you what’s happening then it can then the [00:08:00] communications teams that you support them work with 

[00:08:03] Jack: [00:08:03] communications is one of the industries that gets the bulk from crises.

[00:08:09] Um, Like we can preach all day long, all day strong. We always do the value of communications and the role of the purpose, but you don’t really see it until the fire starts. Um, and you need to start telling people how to put it out. Um, so, you know, in my world and my circle of communications professionals, you know, we’re all patting each other on the back saying, yes, yes, go like now’s the time to remind people.

[00:08:34] Of the best practices. Um, you know, we pulled together a tip sheet, um, for communicating right now and it really just highlights, you know, first be a human and remind yourself how you feel. And do you want another communication about anything at all right now? Um, and is this a communication you need? Um, so we’re trying to prioritize those things, you know, key messages and key plans.

[00:08:58] Let’s, let’s stick [00:09:00] to bare fundamental necessities. Um, And not overwhelm people even more. Um, that’s the, that’s the, the temptation sometimes. Um, everybody’s coming at you with great ideas and great resources. Um, do you need to sling those out and female employees every hour on the hour with these new ideas?

[00:09:21] Or do you need to like have an organizing. Structure somewhere. Um, you have your go to COVID-19 response page on your website for customers. You have one somewhere for your employees, whether that’s the portal, um, or an employee only website, um, just create a singular place with resources and keep them organized and ask yourself, is this adding value or is this adding to the noise and confusion?

[00:09:49] Um, that’s. That’s the hard part of this, I 

[00:09:51] Jennifer B: [00:09:51] think. Great advice, Jen, are you doing that with the, are you, are you parsing out your communications really carefully? 

[00:09:57] Jenn: [00:09:57] I think so. We have, we definitely have [00:10:00] one kind of place where all of the tips that I’ve been doing are all kind of housed and all of the resources that are, are made available for people right now.

[00:10:06] I’m wondering Jack. Because I’ve gotten so many emails from companies that I’ve not done business with in a very long time. And didn’t even know I was on the list. Boiler plate garbage every single time. What is, what are you advising companies 

[00:10:21] Jennifer B: [00:10:21] around that? 

[00:10:22] Jack: [00:10:22] Well, I think the problem there is just bad list segmentation and not knowing the difference between a cold customer and a warm customer.

[00:10:32] The bear basically erring on the side of. You know, let’s just hit everybody with something. I don’t, I honestly, personally don’t think it’s a bad thing. Um, I can tune it out. Um, honestly for me, it gives me a good chance to unsubscribe, to people that I know. Um, and honestly, if they haven’t reached out to me in 10 years, This is probably the one time I’m going to hear from them [00:11:00] and it hasn’t been bothering me.

[00:11:02] Um, and I would say I would advise my clients to err, on that side, just blanket everybody with that one thing that first official notice, if you need to, um, just to make sure you’re taking care of people because you know, who knows on the off chance that 80% of that list is good. Um, even a 20% of it’s good.

[00:11:23] Um, You you’ve got it is your responsibility to take care of the people. I would say, err, on the side of, if anyone ever did business with you, they’re kind of your people or words point and might be again, 

[00:11:39] Jennifer B: [00:11:39] we talked about as we were preparing for this substitute, the word sales for service, right? Genuine alluded to it earlier, but the whole.

[00:11:47] Think of it as staying in touch with people, think about it as offering value without kind of keeping score. Think about it as if it, you know, we all believe in our products because they’re good and ours particularly [00:12:00] create good and good in the world. You know, they’re not, they’re not parasitic. Um, no, I mean, I’d like to think and write their values based.

[00:12:09] They, um, increase belonging, um, and every organization, no matter who they are, is going to need to come out of this and pivot out of this with some real, real challenges around like maintaining community and, um, cohesion. Um, you know, if, and that’s for the people who have this sort of survivor guilt of still being in jobs, you know?

[00:12:30] Right. So there’s going to be, and who gets to come back to work and what does coming back to work even mean? And, and there’s going to be no return to the ways. Um, I think that this sort of life of the employee, as it was traditionally experienced is going to be totally different. So, um, this is a great opportunity for all of us.

[00:12:47] I think, to get our values to the forefront, to. Kind of say, well, there is a different way to do all these things that we have thought were enough. They weren’t enough. We knew they were never enough, but I think we weren’t listened [00:13:00] to. I mean, Jack, I wonder, is there an openness to being listened to right now around your key message of people, first messaging of like leading with humility and vulnerability and truth and transparency and all the things that you you teach.

[00:13:13] Is there a listening now that wasn’t there before? 

[00:13:17] Jack: [00:13:17] You know, for me, it’s like. It’s so weird, but for it’s like the clouds parted and there’s a big beam of sunshine down on where I do my values right now. Um, and it’s like the worst way to POS possible to get that those clouds department. Sometimes that’s what it takes.

[00:13:34] And I’m not saying this is the situation is good at all. 

[00:13:37] Jennifer B: [00:13:37] Um, but 

[00:13:39] Jack: [00:13:39] it is. And it’s not fully dismantling those 

[00:13:44] Jennifer B: [00:13:44] things that 

[00:13:44] Jack: [00:13:44] keep people from acting this way at work. Um, but it is at least temporarily keeping people from barking, everything up a chain of command, like people know the right thing to do. Um, and people are willing to sort of.

[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Elbow their way in and dismantle systems for the short term, at least to do the right thing. And that’s what I hope we take away from this is this, you know, this memory of that muscle that we, we can do the right thing quickly and without risk, um, when we need to. And I think let’s remember that when we come out of this, um, not everything has to be a political game or.

[00:14:29] Be cross examined to the nth degree. Like there’s, you know, do your due diligence and make sure you’re acting responsibly, um, and sending people to save resources and taking care of people, but don’t get in your own way. Um, I think because the stakes are so high, people are stepping aside and letting the right thing, just.

[00:14:47] Letting that train out the gate or horse out the gate or train up the station.

[00:14:55] Jennifer B: [00:14:55] You got it. 

[00:14:56] Jack: [00:14:56] Be perfect right now. 

[00:14:57] Jennifer B: [00:14:57] So, right. That’s true.

[00:15:04] [00:15:00] I love that the whole sort of the carefulness and the caution and the chain of command and the approval, endless approvals and running things by legal and you know, it, I think it’s, it’s a moment for our gut. And our intuition to really come to the fore. I I’ve been talking a lot about actually the feminine that we’ve been talking about.

[00:15:22] That’s on the rise in business, right. And, and as that changes, that will bring with it a different lens. And I would say that the things we communicate about the ways we communicate about it, um, the, the, the comfort with perhaps the vulnerability or the, um, I don’t know the way to speak to people in a way that.

[00:15:43] Generates connection. I mean, that’s really that’s so I’m needed. And I don’t mean to make it gender cause it’s not. But, um, because it’s something that’s that many of us, of all genders can practice. If we were, like you said, if we were given free rein to do it, [00:16:00] it’s just that we’re, sometimes we’re not at the table to influence that.

[00:16:02] Sometimes we’re just, we’re stereotyped about being. You know, vulnerability has no place in business, even though everybody loves Bernie Brown and says that they, they subscribe to that. You know, I don’t see a lot of that. And I think this crisis will bring it to the forest. Something that’s a leadership competency.

[00:16:18] I mean, Jen, your authors. I mean, why is now. Is the path cleared right now for authors in a way that’s diff that’s different than what it was before. Pre-crisis like, how are you seeing that people’s interest in this? 

[00:16:32] Jenn: [00:16:32] I think that’s a good question. I think 

[00:16:33] Jennifer B: [00:16:33] for people 

[00:16:34] Jenn: [00:16:34] who are just now thinking about writing, writing something, I feel like the path has definitely paved because they’re, you know, some have more time in their schedules to kind of get it done that I think, and I think we’re releasing the.

[00:16:48] Jennifer B: [00:16:48] Like the, I 

[00:16:49] Jenn: [00:16:49] don’t know, like the pressure from ourselves to be able to say like, typically my schedule is six to two, eight to five, whatever your hours are to be like, you know what, I’m just going to sleep in today or [00:17:00] I’m not going to push it so hard today. And I think a lot of people are doing that, which I find inspiring.

[00:17:03] So I think that, you know, you can find more room in your schedules too. To get writing done, but the authors who are releasing books right now, it is a whole other wild, wild West type of landscape at the moment where, you know, Amazon’s not prioritizing books. So if you try to buy a book right now, it’s like a month, if not six weeks type of delay.

[00:17:23] But, you know, Barnes noble, Books-A-Million all the other bookstores that, you know, the big retailers, they’re all shipping books, but people are so driven to buying books on Amazon that it’s like, Oh, I can’t get it for a month. Like people aren’t thinking, Oh, I could go get it from, you know, 75 other retailers 

[00:17:38] Jennifer B: [00:17:38] or.

[00:17:39] Retailers. 

[00:17:40] Jenn: [00:17:40] So I think it’s, you know, doing a book launch right now, we’re doing a book tour right now. We’re talking about your book. If you’ve had one for a number of years, even it has to be coming from that place of 

[00:17:49] Jennifer B: [00:17:49] service, 

[00:17:50] Jenn: [00:17:50] like it to Jack, the whole service is sales right now. Like there, you can’t just kind of be tone deaf about it and be beating the drum and saying like, yeah, you know, like check out [00:18:00] my new book, especially if it doesn’t have a relevancy to this.

[00:18:05] I was actually talking to one of our authors this morning, who. Has a book about healthcare careers and it was coming out now anyway, so his, his prime like super, super timely and relevant. So we were just brainstorming. You know, what type of, you know, series of events can you have in terms of just doing live calls, to have people ask questions around their health care.

[00:18:25] And they want to be in clinical settings anymore. Do they? Don’t so, you know, it’s just, it kind of just depends on, on the topic, but I think everyone has to pivot. There’s no, like from a communication standpoint and a messaging standpoint, everyone is pivoting right now. And Jack, to your point of, you know, just kind of like paving the way to allow people to do that.

[00:18:43] I’m finding to be really inspiring. And I think a lot of people aren’t overthinking things as much as they were 

[00:18:48] Jennifer B: [00:18:48] before it’s come up in a number. 

[00:18:51] Jenn: [00:18:51] But I think it’s kind of great when it’s like, Don’t focus on the technology. Just do it as low tech as you can get away with and just do [00:19:00] something as long as it’s coming from a place of 

[00:19:02] Jennifer B: [00:19:02] service.

[00:19:03] Yeah. Excellent point at some point, I think the perfectionism, uh, it’s time to really dismantle that and it’s held a lot of people back and it’s held a lot of, I would imagine, you know, diverse authors gen back from feeling my stories worthy, right. Feeling I’m ready to tell it, feeling like. You know, what does it matter?

[00:19:24] Right. The whole imposter syndrome crap, um, is tied to that perfectionism that I think a lot of us feel who have been underrepresented, right. We’re in the LGBTQ community. We’re business owners. Right? Needing to show up so perfectly because we realized like we’re so tenuously at the table. Right. Anyway, um, that’s a message from, for this crisis to say, you know, now is the time to show up.

[00:19:48] And, you know, I, I think I know that we take some risks when we show up as really ourselves, because we’re already kind of tenuously at the table. So I do worry about that a bit because I think some people are who are [00:20:00] more sort of. In the mainstream need to be the ones that are vulnerable and showing up, you know, in perfectly right now.

[00:20:05] And I would coach the leaders that are communicating right now to be imperfect and not have the answers to talk about what you don’t know to talk about what you’re feeling to talk about. You know, just, just be real with people. Um, but for those of us who literally don’t have the luxury of being real in a way, because of what the world, how the world is uncomfortable with us and who we are or what we’re talking about, because it’s controversial for some, you know, I do think there’s a, in a vacuum that we’re going to be in here for awhile, new voices and new stories can come to the fore and be heard and listened to, and almost metabolized in a different way.

[00:20:44] Um, because things have slowed down and we may be can listen and learn now and take things in, in a different way. I mean, I know that I am incredibly sharp right now and creative because I’m super present. I w I got through sort of [00:21:00] the five stages of grief. I still feel them, but like, I’m trying to sit in acceptance and sort of what’s possible.

[00:21:08] And it’s it’s um, it’s actually really, I wish we had this just stop it sometimes. Not for these tragic reasons, but we, we need to stop and just. Have time to reflect on what the right thing is to do what we truly want to create. Are we on the right path professionally? If not, you know, what are we doing to change that?

[00:21:28] I mean, this is a real reckoning for a lot of us and what are we going to build coming out of this? Um, not just to survive, but I hope to thrive. I hope to work from our purpose and our truth. And if that was not true before. How can we use, how can we see the opportunity in this moment, which is very rare.

[00:21:47] Somebody said to me, we’re living in the midst of a miracle right now, and I thought what a strange word with the tragedy, but it’s a beautiful. Thing to hold. Imagine what’s being created right now. [00:22:00] Like that hasn’t been before or Jack that’s getting accelerated right now. That was never heard before. So I believe that something very magical is happening right now.

[00:22:10] Um, in addition to something tragic and, you know, isn’t that, isn’t that life and the world and, you know, we are, we are animals in this world and I think that that’s very much from nature. I’m I, you know, it’s the beauty and the tragedy and the cruelty and the gorgeousness and all the things. That we are happening all the time.

[00:22:28] We’re experiencing that. I have a question for both of you that I’m 

[00:22:32] Jenn: [00:22:32] curious what your, your input would be, as it relates to people covering or hiding their identities in the workplace in settings like that. Do you do either of you predict that there’s going to be a bigger, a bigger influx of people just being more open and out in the workplace around whatever, not necessarily just LGBTQ, but any stigmatized identity.

[00:22:53] Do you think that that’s. We might see an influx because people now have a different maybe set of values or a different kind of moral compass as a [00:23:00] result of having gone 

[00:23:00] Jennifer B: [00:23:00] through this and knowing about the most vulnerable right. The education we’re getting right now about who’s most vulnerable and racist attacks on zoom and anti-Asian American racism going on, you know, and the need.

[00:23:13] I mean, I think a lot of particularly privileged people are like, Whoa, this is real. Like I might have denied it before. Cause it wasn’t my experience, but now I see it. All over the place. And so I think Jen, if education is what’s going to unlock the change, then I do think we are all getting schooled right now.

[00:23:31] Um, but it’s painful to see. I mean, it’s, it’s like when you think of like the disparities about how COVID is taking certain lives and not other lives, you know, in great numbers, That’s something that maybe some of us would have, would have known what happened because of systemic racism and institutional racism and our social fabric and who is taken care of and who isn’t.

[00:23:52] Um, but, but the number of people that had no idea, um, is staggering and we’ve known this, I mean, this is why we educate [00:24:00] because a few of us are sort of in that work and the majority is not. So I’m hoping that that. We do, we are changed. Um, I did have some people share on my call yesterday or two days ago that I’m scared to bring my full self or be more vulnerably myself right now, because I’m worried about losing my job and, and giving anybody any fodder.

[00:24:21] To make that decision. And on the flip side, there’s other people who said, I can’t hide who I am anymore. There’s so much about me now that is being seen whether I like it or not, because we’re working in this environment. So, you know, I ha I have some mixed feelings in my, my, my communities. What are you about you, Jack?

[00:24:37] What do you think. 

[00:24:38] Jack: [00:24:38] Well, I think like what your you’re kind of what you’re tapping on. Is there the layers of privilege? Like some of us can and some of us can’t or afraid to, and have less privilege, um, and, and have more at stake or at risk than others. And I think you’re going to see some, do it and some not able to do it.

[00:24:56] Um, and unfortunately, I mean, you know, those who [00:25:00] do, hopefully they push things forward and open doors for those who 

[00:25:03] Jennifer B: [00:25:03] can’t, um, 

[00:25:05] Jack: [00:25:05] One of the most interesting aspects I’ve seen is because my clients are very corporate. Um, and you know, a lot of my clients, they leave home at home and they just work. They’re type a, they come to work, they work and then they go home and you don’t know anything about their lives.

[00:25:19] And suddenly they’re doing zoom happy hours and like sharing pictures of kids or kids coming in the dog climbs in their lap. And like the, the wall just has come down and I’ve gotten to know my own clients better through these things. Um, And, you know, there’s a big gift there. Um, and I’ve been more on the front lines, myself with my clients.

[00:25:43] Um, you know, talk just a half to talk about the mechanics of, um, let me check with my husband and see what his meeting schedule is like. Cause I don’t want it to be echoing like beside each other and see if I can get the office like today I’m in the home office, but, um, Most of the day, [00:26:00] almost every day, I’m working at the dining room table.

[00:26:02] Um, cause I prefer the natural sunlight, but so we get those human stories, um, just because we’ve been forced into it and in some ways it’s good and it’s for me. And in other ways it’s risky for others. So I don’t know, I think it’s going to cut both ways. Um, but hopefully people remember the model, um, of what we’re capable of when we come out of this.

[00:26:24] Um, We don’t lose that and we start making more room for that intentionally after this. 

[00:26:32] Jennifer B: [00:26:32] That’s a wonderful, wonderful thought, Jack. Thank you. I know we have to wrap up, but that was, that was a great call to action to sort of notice what’s notice what is. Full of possibility and magical right now that we are figuring it out together and committing that we will not let the good stuff be lost as we kind of come out of this and using our voice to influence and advocate for that is critical.

[00:26:59] So I’m [00:27:00] keeping that talk about being a good communicator, right? I think we all need to put our communications professional hat on and say, what am I talking about? What am I thinking about? What am I writing about? Um, how am I. If I’m in charge of, anybody’s sort of getting information of any kind to people, how can they be of service?

[00:27:16] Like we talked about, um, and, and what do I, what do I hope remains that I’m discovering right now? So, and if we can document that, I think too, it’ll give us some evidence of what was really working. Right. And I think the documentation is important because there are still some people that are going to. Go back to business as usual.

[00:27:34] And it’s like, we have to be able to say like, no, here’s what happened, actually. That was different. And here’s why it was better. Right. Why was, and who it was better for. And how did people feel as a result of it? If we could measure belonging right now, it’d be so interesting to understand how that has that landscape has shifted.

[00:27:53] And I might argue, there may be less and more, right. Depending on which lens we look at it through. And there’s a lot of learning in that. So [00:28:00] thanks for joining us today, Jack. 

[00:28:01] Jack: [00:28:01] It was just great to see you. 

[00:28:04] Jenn: [00:28:04] This 

[00:28:04] Jennifer B: [00:28:04] was really wonderful. Thanks for all the good tips. Thanks Jen, grace, to what are we? What’s our next one of this 

[00:28:11] Jenn: [00:28:11] next.

[00:28:14] Wednesday. Nope, that’s a lie. That’s the following please. Next to 45, one ish Eastern time. 

[00:28:23] Jennifer B: [00:28:23] Wonderful. Okay, everybody join us there. Thank you, Jack. Talk to 

[00:28:29] you both.