The Pandemic’s Impact on Women in the Workplace Jenn T. Grace, Eileen Scully, and Jennifer Brown 

[00:00:00] Jenn: [00:00:00] Hello, Jennifer Brown. Here we are 

[00:00:06] Jenn B: [00:00:06] denti grace. Nice to be with you again 

[00:00:09] Jenn: [00:00:09] as always. So we’re, we’re kind of trying out our new style with our boxes. So we’re no longer a gen sandwich, but here we are. We’ve got a nice little pyramid going with our guest Eileen Scully. Hello, Eileen. 

[00:00:21] Eileen: [00:00:21] Hello. 

[00:00:24] Jenn B: [00:00:24] Welcome 

[00:00:25] Jenn: [00:00:25] Brady bunch squares.

[00:00:30] Very accurate. Look, it’s like you rehearsed. I like it. I’m like how’s everyone doing before we start chatting about some good stuff about women in the workplace. How was everyone just a temperature check since we’re still in 

[00:00:42] Eileen: [00:00:42] coven? Yes, we’re good. 

[00:00:45] Jenn B: [00:00:45] I think they’re healthy. It’s hot Todd on the East coast.

[00:00:48] Eileen: [00:00:48] Very hot on the East coast. Struggling with that. 

[00:00:53] Jenn B: [00:00:53] Yeah, I got tested for COVID. So I’ve had the fun nasal swab experience, which I don’t recommend. [00:01:00] Um, it all negative, so that’s good. 

[00:01:03] Eileen: [00:01:03] Great. 

[00:01:04] Jenn: [00:01:04] All right. So typically, you know, it’s summer time, the three of us would have been enjoying some type of clamp, like feast on the Connecticut shore.

[00:01:15] And we, we have not had that luxury thanks to being in a pandemic, but this is the second best, right? So, you know, the three of us get to, to chat and prior to even hitting record on this, we were already owned down all sorts of good topics around how the pandemic is impacting. It obviously is impacting a lot of people in the workplace, but specifically around women, which is your area of expertise Eileen.

[00:01:36] So before we start kind of peppering you with questions and what we’re thinking about, do you want to give just a little bit of a background on what you do and what the rising tides does? 

[00:01:44] Eileen: [00:01:44] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So the rising tides was founded almost exactly really five years ago, which is crazy to me to think back, you know, it feels like it’s been 50 years and sometimes it feels like it’s been five weeks with everything that’s been happening, but [00:02:00] we were founded to really improve and accelerate the position of women in the workplace and to really amplify the work that women do and the path that they need for success.

[00:02:15] Jenn B: [00:02:15] Very succinct. That’s great. And so, Eileen, I know you have many thoughts about kind of net, net, net. Like how has this pandemic impacted? Has it set us way back? Um, are there things that we should be extremely worried about and sort of shoring up or, you know, voting on, um, or advocating for making sure we don’t lose the toe hole that, you know, we’ve fought so hard to have, and I would love to know too, like, is there anything.

[00:02:42] Positive about what, all the changes that we’ve seen for women in 

[00:02:45] Eileen: [00:02:45] the workplace. Yeah. Great, great positioning. We, I think this is a time for every person that works in any type of an environment, anyone who works outside the home to [00:03:00] reevaluate what that looks like. So if you’re in a position of leadership, you’ve got an opportunity right now to look at the entirety of your workforce.

[00:03:10] How they’ve managed to creatively problem solve during this pandemic and still serve your customers, your clients, whoever it is you’re working with. And also how they’re managing to do this with a full workload at home. How many of your employees are homeschooling? Not by their own choice. So they have a full house and a full slate of work, and they’ve still managed to be.

[00:03:39] I’m going to guess fairly successful doing what you’ve asked them to do prior to the pandemic. So, and we take that resourcefulness in that case activity and apply it to designing a new workplace and a new way of working that does work for everyone. Finally, we’re not in [00:04:00] that place now. Right. So what we’re reading every day, there’s a thought piece that says, Hey, so for the there’s time married couples where one partner took the bulk of the childcare, the other partners finally seeing what exactly that involves when they’re not around or when they’ve been going off or traveling for work.

[00:04:24] And the other partner’s been home doing the childcare. There’s some illumination on that. Yeah, the devil, the division of labor has not been equal and people are starting to see that in a way that can’t be denied. And I think that that’s our opportunity to say, okay, how do we now create a workforce that doesn’t support only that partner that leaves the home every day and goes and sits in the office.

[00:04:50] But one that supports the partner that takes on the bulk of the childcare. 

[00:04:54] Jenn: [00:04:54] Hmm. I feel like there’s that old adage, right? If you want something done, ask a mom, like I 

[00:05:00] [00:05:00] Eileen: [00:05:00] ask a single mom. 

[00:05:01] Jenn: [00:05:01] Oh, for real. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I feel like I’ve just been watching a lot of stuff too. Cause obviously as a parent myself, like, it’s just kind of curious to see how people are doing different things and then friends of mine who might be employed by somebody just trying to get an assessment of.

[00:05:18] What their employer is doing for them. And it’s just fascinating to me to hear, like, you know, for some, for some people I know, like they’re working at midnight or one in the morning because that’s the time where it’s quiet and everybody’s out of their hair and asleep, but at the end of the day, they’re still getting the job done.

[00:05:33] And I think that that’s like one of the most important things to be facing forward with this is that no matter what, they’re still getting the job done. And I think that, I don’t know. I’m curious what you think about just working hours and. 

[00:05:46] Eileen: [00:05:46] Concert life balance. Are we having that conversation 

[00:05:50] Jenn: [00:05:50] such a thing exists, right, 

[00:05:52] Eileen: [00:05:52] right.

[00:05:52] I mean, so I’ve been a remote worker for, I’ll say the better part of 15 years. The last time I went to an [00:06:00] office was probably 2006. So I’ve been accustomed to balancing and juggling, forget who else was in the household with me, but just being able to close down. My work and do, you know, have a life outside of that?

[00:06:19] I would never say I’ve mastered it. And when I launched this business five years ago, all that went out the door because I was all three of us know when you work for yourself, you feel like if you’re not working or you’re slipping behind that someone else is. Ahead of you or something else is happening or you’re not doing all the things all the time, things that you’re supposed to be do.

[00:06:41] Right? Yeah. So I haven’t exactly mastered that, but I think what happens is everybody’s working in global environments right now, when we think about the way we get work done and who we’re working with, does it matter if I send you an email at eight [00:07:00] 30 and I don’t hear from you until eight 30 that night?

[00:07:03] Either because you’ve been doing other things or because you’re on another continent, we need to be able to have some elasticity in our work day to allow for that and to allow people to have full, robust lives that don’t always revolve around them at work. Does that answer the question? I mean, it’s, it’s a challenge.

[00:07:27] I think for people who are used to counting widgets and bits and bytes and. Right. And obviously when we’re talking about, you know, what an hourly employee that needs to be behind the counter, that’s a very different situation, but I don’t think that was what you were asking. No, 

[00:07:42] Jenn: [00:07:42] no, not at all. And I, I, and I think just the global economy, right?

[00:07:46] Like it’s just, things have been becoming more global for a long time at this point. And I think now. This is kind of forcing us to have those conversations more intentionally, which is a little bit of what we were talking about before we [00:08:00] went live. It was just more of like, what’s the intentionality that we can kind of put behind the impact.

[00:08:05] Obviously it’s impacting. People other than women in the workforce, but clearly that’s your area of expertise. So I’m, you know, Jen kind of somewhat asked in her question of like, are there any positives that you might be seeing right now? And the answer might be no, but I’m kind of curious if there’s anything, any positive outcomes at the moment.

[00:08:23] Eileen: [00:08:23] Yeah. And I would say the positives right now, sit squarely in the potential. So the potential for companies and organizations to. Really change forever. The work paradigm and the dynamic and the structure around the work day. It’s been, we threw it away really quickly when there was a global health crisis that was urgent and imminent, and we built back to.

[00:08:57] A workplace that is not perfect by any stretch. [00:09:00] No one is completely satisfied with the way we’re all working right now. I mean, as you said, at the top of the call, Jen, the three of us would much rather be having this conversation around a fireplace and drinking wine and eating clams, but we’re figuring out how to do that.

[00:09:16] And so I think that the potential for change and. My clients. I’m challenging them to find the people in their workforce who have been the most resourceful and creative in problem solving, elevate them into a leadership position and allow them to really craft this for the workforce. Right. We can do that.

[00:09:40] We’ve proven that all of the constructs we thought were absolutely essential and necessary. Don’t matter walls and cubes don’t matter, right? The only things that matter. And this is where we get into equity are who are the people that we are forcing to put on masks and stand [00:10:00] in front of strangers every day in order to get their work done, what are we paying them?

[00:10:05] And the people that can have the luxury of working from home, do they have the right equipment and the right bandwidth and the right tools? To satisfy what they need to do. Those things should not be showing up in a personnel review at the end of it a year. Right. I’m working with a team right now. I’ll wear one of the women on the team had a situation where she had three kids at home, all of whom were online, all of whom needed a private space to run zoom calls.

[00:10:35] And not everybody can find a separate bedroom in a house when you’ve got a full house like that. That should not be coming up in, in. Any kind of an employee review. 

[00:10:46] Jenn: [00:10:46] I suspect that it, it might still creep up in people’s reviews, like even thinking about this, that you’re, you’re, 

[00:10:54] Eileen: [00:10:54] uh, prediction out. We’ve all worked for managers who are not team [00:11:00] players and who are looking for what’s that one thing that I can use to either put this person in their place or eliminate them from the team.

[00:11:08] Right. So we’ve at, at a higher level, we’ve got to be on high alert, looking out for how are we structuring those and what are the things that will not at all be admissible.

[00:11:23] It could happen that allows you managers don’t get better during a pandemic, right? 

[00:11:31] Jenn: [00:11:31] Question about 

[00:11:31] Jenn B: [00:11:31] like visibility and growing your career. Eileen, like the question of. We don’t have, we don’t have offices to even be in and bumped into the people or the sort of relationship 

[00:11:44] Jenn: [00:11:44] basis of a lot 

[00:11:45] Jenn B: [00:11:45] of like promotions and advancement.

[00:11:48] Like if women are already and other, other talent demographics too, frankly, are sort of outside of the. Inside group. Um, you take that and you put that into a virtual world and all of a sudden you’re [00:12:00] completely not seen and you’re not on anyone’s radar screen. And it strikes me that that’s actually incredibly problematic for.

[00:12:07] Like mid career people, right? I’m like visibility is so critical. It’s sort of who knows you. And who’s going to sponsor you as we talk about a lot with beans that you’re going to put your social capital in play for somebody in order to like pull them up. And that needs to be done, especially for underrepresented talent.

[00:12:27] Uh, because you know, we are by nature outside of those circles that do that for each other as sort of a matter of course, So how does that then happen in a virtual world where all we have is video screens in front of each other in a way that helps us in our career trajectory? 

[00:12:46] Eileen: [00:12:46] Yeah. So I like to take it from the other side.

[00:12:49] So for anyone in particularly women who’ve achieved a certain level of success. You need to do that canvassing and you need to find who were [00:13:00] those women who. Are falling through the cracks who are not able to speak for themselves and whether or not you choose to mentor or sponsor them, you need to find them and bring them through and help them find that mentor sponsor that will speak on their behalf.

[00:13:16] I mean, I tell people all the time that your sponsor, when someone’s talking about elevating you, whether it’s into a project or into a position or promotion, those kinds rotations happen without you even knowing. So your sponsor is the one that’s bringing your name into consideration for that you don’t even know that it’s happening.

[00:13:36] So finding a nurturing those relationships, it goes both ways. So if women want to see a change in the workforce in the next 10, 15 years, we need to own that change and look down and pull people out. I’ve been through. It’s very hard as particularly an introverted. Young woman. Who’s trying to figure [00:14:00] out the politics of an organization.

[00:14:02] If you don’t already have those relationships, now it’s close to impossible to find and build them.

[00:14:11] Jenn: [00:14:11] Go ahead, John. 

[00:14:12] Jenn B: [00:14:12] I was just going to say, affinity groups are so important. Yeah, I know. And they’re actually buying a real heyday in the virtual world because like, there’s so few barriers for participation now, you know, you can, I mean, except for zoom fatigue, which is 

[00:14:24] Jenn: [00:14:24] so real, 

[00:14:26] Jenn B: [00:14:26] it’s like the last thing you want to do is get on another call, but that’s not like essential to your job, but at the same time, um, showing up is easier than it’s ever been.

[00:14:35] It’s not predicated on geography or. You know, whatever your role is. And so they’re actually enjoying a resurgence in membership. And so you’re, if you work for an organization as a women’s network, now is the time to like step forward for a leadership role, the rumble, like something to, or you’re, you’re continuing to meet people and network, and also, um, generate some of that sponsor, those sponsor and mentor [00:15:00] relationships that are we’ve learned are so important.

[00:15:01] In fact, they’re like the most important thing. According to Sylvia, Hewlett’s research on, forget a mentor, find a sponsor. This is like the number one thing that makes the difference. It’s not diversity training and unconscious bias. Yeah. It’s literally having somebody, like you said, talking about you and you’re not in the room advocating for, are you and saying, no, we need to give her this opportunity because she’s a rock star and she has a lot of potential and all vouch for her.

[00:15:29] Yeah. So we, women can do this too for younger and younger women. I love that you always bring that lens to this too, cause 

[00:15:36] Eileen: [00:15:36] that’s an important, right? I mean, it’s not going to happen organically and all of these brilliant high potential mid-career women need our help to accelerate that. I mean, how many forgive me for saying this, but how many mediocre mid-career men?

[00:15:55] Get pulled up and through and skip levels because they’re playing golf [00:16:00] or poker with the right guy. And that all happens. And we’ve all lived in that space. And that’s fine because that works for those men, but we need the same kind of process for them and it takes a different form. I couldn’t, my daughter was growing up.

[00:16:17] I couldn’t skip out after work and go play around a golf. So I had to get home. I had a kid to run home to, this is what I’m saying about reading, evaluating the way we work in the way we’ve constructed that space. 

[00:16:30] Jenn: [00:16:30] And I also think that, especially now with the pandemic and the zoom fatigue on top of it, where I’ve had a couple of, of instances where obviously I’m employing myself and to others.

[00:16:41] So I’m not worried about, you know, being pulled up anywhere, but like even in networking settings where I might be on a call that’s from five to six or depending on the day, it could be from 10:00 AM to 11:00 AM. And like, I have to be off. At the top of the hour on the hour, because I have a child who is waiting for me and I had to, I want him [00:17:00] to get an hour myself to begin with.

[00:17:02] And so, yeah, I have that on a magnified scale where, for me, it’s just like, because my point was going to be is that. You then have the chatter that happens after like here’s just our programming. And then it’s basically like the virtual water cooler chat where now you’re talking about more personal things.

[00:17:18] And then, so there’s so many women who are missing those opportunities because they’re the ones that are doing often the primary caregiving. Yeah. For me, like I’ve had that happen in, you know, and I’m a single mom, so I have my son half the time and I’ve still had that happen and it’s like, it just, it doesn’t feel good when, you know, That you are missing out on that vital conversation that could have some impact on your business in our case, the three of our cases or other women in their careers.

[00:17:47] Eileen: [00:17:47] And, you know, you could have a very detrimental effect. Absolutely. When you’re seen as. The one who was always leaving the office first or right where it doesn’t matter why you’re leaving. [00:18:00] Yeah. But if you need to leave and you’re always the first one to leave. So I used to, when my daughter was grown, I was working on a team with a number of people who had much younger children.

[00:18:09] So they were running around you and the whole weekend soccer and activity thing, which was over for me by then. Okay. But I got very involved and committed to nonprofit work at that time because I had this huge space to fill. So when I introduced myself to a new team, I would say, justice, all of you have your soccer practices and your dance recitals.

[00:18:32] I run a nonprofit in my spare time. That’s very important to me and my personal fulfillment. And I’ve found that if I, you know, covered it in their soccer practices and sort of served it up that way, that it was relatable. But if I said, Oh yeah, I’m going to volunteer. Okay. That’s you know, it would’ve seen, it would have been seen very differently.

[00:18:56] Put it that way. 

[00:18:57] Jenn: [00:18:57] I also think is unfair to women [00:19:00] who don’t have children. So like there’s a whole other, other like balanced side of this conversation too, is that so often women who don’t have children are treated completely unfairly for entirely different reasons, because in that case, like, I know you have, you know, you.

[00:19:13] You are a parent, but like, you know, if Jen had made a statement like that, it would be like, well, how are you comparing your extra curricular volunteer activity to my child? And like, that’s not a fair argument either for anybody. Right. Um, 

[00:19:29] Jenn B: [00:19:29] and like, when you think about performance reviews, I mean, back to that, I, I we’re, I worry a lot about.

[00:19:35] Sort of backlash to the flexibility, the, for parents that’s being given and sort of the resentment of that. And then like, how do we level the playing field when some of us are struggling to have so many. You know, struggles and managing our own productivity, the number of hours we can work, the ability to focus and have a quiet space.

[00:19:54] Um, and then how do we balance that with, um, those of us who don’t have the family [00:20:00] challenges to at the same time, prioritize our own, our own priorities in our calendars. You know, I feel like. Many teams have transparency for their calendars and like, even just sort of down to the nitty gritty level of like, well, how, how come I have to be online?

[00:20:14] How come I’m expected to take all the overflow work from XYZ on our team? Um, so how does a manager, like, you know, make this somehow equivalent when the sort of impact of, of not just like the COVID and COVID on certain like family members in certain communities. You know, when you account for all that, the manager then has to be in this somehow play God and play judge and jury about what’s fair.

[00:20:43] When like literally the bottom has fallen out of like what a high potential, whatever that means. Like now it’s like, right. And then how you read it. So it’s really interesting. I am hearing a little like backlash here and there, and I just think it’s fascinating to kind of wonder, like how. You [00:21:00] know, how do we level this out in a way that is wise and fair in such a dynamic situation?

[00:21:07] Eileen: [00:21:07] Yeah. I don’t think the expectation of fair is fair. Right. Nothing’s ever going to be fair. Like, did you grow up in a household where your parents treated you in each of your siblings? Siblings equally? Probably not. Right. Like everybody knew who was the favorite. But I think if we, as work teams can look at what is it that each of us needs to be successful and work better together and have that conversation and continually reevaluate.

[00:21:41] What are those circumstances and who’s carrying more of their fair share. And how do we more equally dispersed that in an equitable way? I think that’s the conversation, right? I mean, it’s never going to be fair and everybody’s not going to ever, or be happy. That’s the world in which we [00:22:00] live. But I think that open dialogue helps you establish some of that.

[00:22:05] And I think getting the team to participate in the solution. Is a big part of it also. And the other piece of it is, you know, when I talk to people about the different people we work with and among, there are so many different ways that people present in how you think, you know, someone there’s a category of difference that any one of us at any moment, any day could.

[00:22:36] Suddenly become part of and that’s disabled. So when you think about, Hey, what am I doing right now? And I’m working so much harder because this person is always leaving because they have to walk their dog or whatever that is. Well, there could be a space in a time where you could need your team to support you in ways you don’t anticipate right now.

[00:22:58] So. I know that the [00:23:00] workplace is not the most altruistic of places and we’re all in it for ourselves and our own advancement. But if we could step back and be a little more generous particularly now, and think I could be walking in those shoes in some way someday soon. So let me give this now so that we create a workplace culture that will give it back to me.

[00:23:22] If I should need it. 

[00:23:24] Jenn B: [00:23:24] I have one months. 

[00:23:26] Eileen: [00:23:26] I don’t know. I mean, I, sometimes I’m a little too Pollyanna, but I like to think that we can really work in, we’ve all worked in horrible workplaces and that just does so much to zap our creativity and our energy and our productivity turn it around. Right. Cause you really 

[00:23:44] Jenn: [00:23:44] don’t know when you’re ever gonna need it.

[00:23:46] Like, and I know you’ve actually both have read my memoir before it, before it came out. But like I talk about. Having like a massive sleep deprivation issue because of, and not just insomnia, like literally not sleeping for six months. [00:24:00] And so it was a time where I had to rely on everybody around me to pick up on all the pieces that I was not able to, like, I was just complete, like I was so.

[00:24:08] Coherence, but like that’s when you have that of Goodwill built up where you can ask a little, little bit more of people while you’re going through that thing, because you would do the same thing for someone else. I think so often, especially in larger work environments, like we kind of lose sight of like, Hey, we’re all just people doing this thing to make, to, you know, to contribute in whatever way we’re contributing.

[00:24:32] But so often we’re not, you know, we’re just not even extending that common courtesy. 

[00:24:37] Eileen: [00:24:37] I’ve said multiple times since this whole pandemic forced quarantine started, like when was last time you wanted to invite all of your colleagues and all of your clients into your living room? Never me neither. Right? So we’re, we’re in each other’s very personal private spaces for the first time.

[00:24:58] And. It’s [00:25:00] changing some of that dynamic too. Like when you see someone’s little kid running in the room, it’s not a big news event. Like the BBC guy was last year. Right. It happens to all of us every day. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:25:13] Jenn B: [00:25:13] I would like to equate this concept two to the one of allyship. So I often think about my needing allies as a queer woman.

[00:25:23] So male allies, straight allies. Like, you know, you, I leave. Thank 

[00:25:27] Eileen: [00:25:27] you so 

[00:25:28] Jenn: [00:25:28] grateful. Yeah. 

[00:25:29] Jenn B: [00:25:29] And yet having more capacity than I’m actually using too. Provide allies to provide advocacy to. Right. And my big thing these days is that you have unused capacity and you’re, and you’re going to need that capacity someday.

[00:25:46] Yep. Um, yep. The tables returned. Like I love to think about, um, how many parents, for example, have their kids coming out to them as trans and gender non binary, for example. And I think to myself at that [00:26:00] moment, that parent. Like, wouldn’t, it have been amazing to be like, to be tuned in to that conversation before you needed it.

[00:26:08] Wouldn’t have been, have been amazing to understand that this could be my life too, like that these, there are people around me who are suffering, that aren’t able to do their best work, thrive, manage things. And I have some capacity to give and I need to, to give it. Um, as I can, and as I’m able to, um, and I think in these days with the black lives movement, I think that I, I have sort of a lot of capacity and a lot of energy.

[00:26:35] I find myself very. Very like hyper present and having a lot, because I know that there’s aspects of my life because of my identity that allow me to like save up that capacity because I walked through the world looking the way that I do. And so that comes with, to me, a responsibility and an accountability, honestly, to bring that to bear.

[00:26:57] And so I think it relates to your point, you [00:27:00] made about capacity, like who has it? Who needs it? 

[00:27:03] Eileen: [00:27:03] Can we 

[00:27:04] Jenn B: [00:27:04] continue to. Uh, be transparent about that, knowing that things circumstances change constantly. I mean, change is the only constant and it will be you on the other side at some point when you least expect it.

[00:27:17] And like, and, and this is why I to the whole, like, it’s, it’s all of our work, you know, to jump into this moment right now for racial justice, 

[00:27:24] Jenn: [00:27:24] it’s 

[00:27:25] Jenn B: [00:27:25] all of our work. And a lot of us need to lift a lot more than we’ve been lifting and we need to be sorted. You know, shouldering that. And I think of it, if the same thing as like teamwork load, it’s the same thing as like really, truly trusting your colleagues, that they will have your back when you need, when you need it most.

[00:27:42] But if you have the extra capacity, I think the onus is on the person with the capacity to give. And I believe that 

[00:27:48] Eileen: [00:27:48] true. And again, it’s not done because you expect that you’ll need it in the future. It’s done because it’s the right thing to do. I mean, it’s not [00:28:00] hurting anyone for us to find a better structure in which we work and a better way of working within these dynamic and changing teams every day.

[00:28:12] I just, right. I, I understand that there are people who will always find a way to look at something and not participate because they’re not getting anything directly out of it. Okay. I understand those people exist and we live and work among them. And that’s fine. You understand who they are, so your expectations are appropriate.

[00:28:34] But I do think particularly right now, people are showing up in new and interesting ways for each other. And I think that that dynamic is something that we want to capture and corral and put to work for all of us to change these workplaces once and for all 

[00:28:53] Jenn B: [00:28:53] right. 

[00:28:54] Eileen: [00:28:54] Yeah. 

[00:28:55] Jenn B: [00:28:55] Your hair. 

[00:28:56] Eileen: [00:28:56] Yeah, I hope we can help.

[00:28:57] So I do one of the other things I do [00:29:00] with my clients as, and it’s a really interesting conversation because it changes some of their, the expectations of their workforce, but I challenged them and I say, make sure that your path to promotion your path to leadership. Is explicitly looking at who are the people that actively sponsor other people in your organization.

[00:29:27] If you do not show that trait every day, if you’re not actively sponsoring, particularly the people who don’t look like you don’t pray like you and don’t love like you you’re on the path to leadership. And if people start to see that. That becomes what changes and transforms forever, that culture in that organization.

[00:29:52] Because if they see that’s winning, I’m going to be more like that. And I might have to learn how to do that, but I’m going to, I’m going to model that [00:30:00] behavior, 

[00:30:01] Jenn B: [00:30:01] right? Absolutely role modeling and norm normalizing, normalizing what that looks like, so that others follow it. And I actually just got a new word because I don’t love normal, uh, utilizing.

[00:30:14] Eileen: [00:30:14] I love it. 

[00:30:15] Jenn B: [00:30:15] Neutralizing. Yeah. Like let’s make this a part of what we see every day, so that it’s not so unusual to see somebody exhibiting this and doing this as a part of like an expectation of leadership. Yeah. Wouldn’t that be incredible. 

[00:30:29] Eileen: [00:30:29] Some people do it very well and very authentically, and that’s why they’re successful.

[00:30:36] That’s why people are drawn to them, but we need more people like that. That’s 

[00:30:40] Jenn B: [00:30:40] all right. 

[00:30:41] Eileen: [00:30:41] Yeah. 

[00:30:43] Jenn: [00:30:43] That’s 

[00:30:43] Jenn B: [00:30:43] great. I mean, 

[00:30:45] Eileen: [00:30:45] a good conversation. I brought 

[00:30:46] Jenn: [00:30:46] up, we’re talking about such fundamentals at the end of the day. Like, do you want to others as you would 

[00:30:51] Eileen: [00:30:51] want to now? 

[00:30:54] Jenn: [00:30:54] And I just, I find it 

[00:30:55] Eileen: [00:30:55] getting myself 

[00:30:56] Jenn: [00:30:56] in conversations regularly where I’ll end up prefacing with what I’m [00:31:00] saying.

[00:31:00] Like we do it this way because that’s how I would want it done. Like if I were on the other end of this, like, this is what I would want. And I don’t think that that. I dunno, I think for smaller businesses, right? It’s easy for us to make those sweeping changes and decisions. And then you have corporate, which is a whole other animal, but as we’ve been talking, I keep thinking about like everybody in the middle, like all of those companies that I feel like my experience with a horrible employer had like maybe a hundred employees at it.

[00:31:25] So like, they’re bigger than like. You know, you’ve got 10 people, you can make good decisions quickly. Once you get higher than that, like it starts to get like really mucky. So I think it is that individual person’s responsibility to kind of, you know, take it, take it however they can to help others and just be of service.

[00:31:43] No think that’s, I don’t know. I feel like this shouldn’t be rocket science, but unfortunately, so much of what, you know, the two of you do in particular like teaching and training and consulting and all of the things and speaking around these topics, like. The end of the day, we’re just talking about being people like be right.

[00:31:58] Just be a person. All [00:32:00] we can quote, um, Eduardo, Jen, um, with his be an effing person like he’s he needs to be an effing person. Yeah. 

[00:32:09] Eileen: [00:32:09] I love that. I’m 

[00:32:10] Jenn: [00:32:10] trying to keep the, uh, the actual swear words out of our video

[00:32:17] Eileen: [00:32:17] to put the sensor block in front of Jim, but it’s true. It’s not that hard. To be a good human and to be generous. Like I think that that’s, I talk about professional generosity in my practice all the time, where if you can find something and do something that benefits someone else professionally, while taking no benefit from that yourself.

[00:32:42] Imagine if we each practice that on a daily basis and just gave stuff to other people just for them. I’d 

[00:32:52] Jenn: [00:32:52] love it. It’s a beautiful call to action for anyone who’s watching this now, or whenever they might be watching it in the future, like just do one thing today. [00:33:00] That’s a generous act for somebody that you work with.

[00:33:02] Yep. Yup. Well, I like that nice way to preach that and of our conversation. 

[00:33:10] Jenn B: [00:33:10] I know. Very good reminder. 

[00:33:13] Jenn: [00:33:13] I know 

[00:33:15] Eileen: [00:33:15] how fast it’s 

[00:33:16] Jenn: [00:33:16] pretty of us could talk for hours as we have, but for the, for the sake of those watching, we’ll keep it succinct. 

[00:33:23] Eileen: [00:33:23] Great. I 

[00:33:24] Jenn: [00:33:24] mean, it was so nice to see you 

[00:33:26] Eileen: [00:33:26] both lovely to see 

[00:33:28] Jenn B: [00:33:28] how far you would run both.