Maintaining Resiliency in Tough Times Jenn T. Grace, Dr. Steve Yacovelli, and Jennifer Brown


[00:00:00] Jenn: [00:00:00] Good morning, Jen,

[00:00:03] Jennifer B: [00:00:03] how are you? How are you?

[00:00:07] Jenn: [00:00:07] It’s a Monday. I don’t know that we’ve recorded one of these on a Monday yet. So I feel like there’s not much that we can really complain about because it’s so early in the week,

[00:00:17] Jennifer B: [00:00:17] I’m trying to like stave off the panic. That’s what it feels. I’m like, I can’t keep this mellow vibe going from the weekend.

[00:00:24] Like, and then it, it, it literally sort of is. Dismantled by the end of Monday, you’re in full tilt. Like. Holy shit, rollercoaster.

[00:00:34] Jenn: [00:00:34] Yep. Sounds exactly right. Speaking of full tilt, rollercoasters, all the things. And some of what we want to talk about today is about resiliency and just kind of maintaining that.

[00:00:47] And we have a special guest today, dr. Steve Yucca Valley. Hey, Steve.

[00:00:56] Steve: [00:00:56] Feeling like you both like it’s the start of a week. Yay. [00:01:00] You are good.

[00:01:01] Jennifer B: [00:01:01] There it goes.

[00:01:03] Jenn: [00:01:03] We put out today.

[00:01:05] Steve: [00:01:05] Exactly.

[00:01:07] Jennifer B: [00:01:07] Yes.

[00:01:08] Jenn: [00:01:08] Yeah. So I would love Steve, if you want to just start off by telling those who are watching just a little bit about yourself since so much of what you do covers. Uh, pride LGBTQ plus related activities.

[00:01:22] And we are in pride month at the time of this recording.

[00:01:26] Steve: [00:01:26] Thank you. I’m dr. Steve Makaveli I’m owner and principal of top dog learning group. We are a learning development, change management and diversity and inclusion consulting firm. We’re based in Orlando, Florida, but we have. Joggers throughout North America and beyond.

[00:01:40] And we play in a couple of different spaces, um, with the, of generic corporate stuff. Then under the brand of the gay leadership period, um, doing a lot of work with inclusion specifically for LGBTQ people and allies,

[00:01:57] Jenn: [00:01:57] that was nice and succinct.

[00:02:02] [00:02:00] Jennifer B: [00:02:02] That was excellent. Instead of seeing, um, So I think I’m specializing in gay leadership as you do, you know, it’s pride, but it’s simultaneously like so much more. So, so what’s your analysis about the difficulty of bringing, bringing our full self as LGBTQ people, many of whom are closeted and struggling with so many things that happened to our, to our community.

[00:02:27] Um, And then pivoting through coven pivoting. You know, now this was this huge, amazing opportunity we’re living in with the black lives movement. You know, what is the message for gay leaders? And I think I might ask, like, why are so equipped? I think, I think to move through these inflection points and I really, I think I can move away.

[00:02:51] And that’s, that’s a gift. It’s a thing that’s kind of built into you. I speak resilience that we’ve developed. So I wonder like, what is our very thing that [00:03:00] he right now and how can it be as much as possible utilizing all of that?

[00:03:04] Steve: [00:03:04] Yeah. It’s a lot of good stuff in there. My first thought is since this ruling recently where you cannot be fired, which.

[00:03:12] Fantastic. It’s a great start. Um, you know, when you look at the HRC data consistently, it’s about 50 ish percent of people who aren’t at at work. And, you know, everyone has their own reasons why they’re not doing that, but now one of the reasons was I’m afraid I’m going to get fired. That’s now off the table in a great way.

[00:03:30] So one of the things that we can do as allies with, with. All of the others. I like to say, um, is that we can be, uh, present, you know, obviously, um, as a white dude, I may be perceived as straight, but if I can be comfortable to be my authentic self at work and be out then that shows my otherness and now I can start to really use that, that perspective.

[00:03:53] To help broaden the acceptance of any of the others are, uh, black and Brown brothers and sisters, our [00:04:00] trans brothers and sisters, whatever that looks like. And I think that’s the great opportunity from the SCOTUS ruling is that it really brings an opportunity for people who aren’t necessarily their true, authentic selves at work to now be, or at least to really rethink the reason why they aren’t.

[00:04:15] And I that’s most exciting to me.

[00:04:19] Jennifer B: [00:04:19] It kind of strikes me as the member of the Maslow hierarchy, right? The food shelter, water, community, and belonging. And then self-actualization, um, it’s almost that not certainly not being able to be fired for being gay, is it sort of checks one of those sort of basic needs off.

[00:04:39] And I think that what you’re saying is it. We can about one aspect. At least we can relax a little. And we also, to me, it frees up some bandwidth. And I think then, then I think about what then, where do I want to use that bandwidth? And allyship is all about them. It’s actually. Sort of getting your needs met of course, as we all need, [00:05:00] but then having some extra cycles to contribute, to shaping conversations and saying things that need to be said and advocating and all that stuff.

[00:05:07] So I wonder if like, do you look at it as that? And I know there’s more work to be done. I don’t want you to pretend that the equality act is the next thing on the list

[00:05:16] Jenn: [00:05:16] for the LGBT community,

[00:05:18] Jennifer B: [00:05:18] but. But this, this was a watershed you’re right. And the celebration is it doesn’t need to stop at the celebrations, need it.

[00:05:26] Now we move on to this next opportunity, which I think is to perhaps use some of our privileges that we have in the LGBTQ community to step into the aspiring ally, the white ally, the cisgender ally, that you know, all of that, which is interesting. Cause you can, you can be in a marginalized community, but you can also be an ally at the same time.

[00:05:48] Steve: [00:05:48] Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I’ve, I’ve really, um, some years ago, I’ve really tried to understand and be there for our trans community and, and took it upon myself to just, just [00:06:00] listen. And, and I’m, I’m seeing myself redoing that now over and over again, with, with our black and Brown brothers and sisters, and obviously being in the DNI space, I had some experience, but absolutely not as much as I will ever have being of someone who’s white and, and I’m really just.

[00:06:17] Making myself stop and listen a lot more than I expected in a great way. And, and in that moment of quiet is when I’m hearing a lot more of what’s being needed, um, what, what is already being addressed, what’s not being addressed and that’s where I’m finding a bit comfort. And as I’m sure you all can appreciate, you know, we all, and I’m sure folks watching here as well.

[00:06:39] Want to help and make things more inclusive for everybody. Like, that’s probably a common denominator for many of us in this position, but it’s wondering what can you do? And for some, yes, it’s, it’s putting on your mask and going downtown and marching and doing all that great stuff. For others it’s well, what can I do to educate maybe other folks in the community and say, you know what?

[00:06:59] You [00:07:00] don’t say all lives matter. And here’s why, and doing, doing that in that ally acceptable place, you know, it’s finding that area that you fit in order to keep moving down the highway collectively versus just thinking it’s a one way lane one, one lane road.

[00:07:13] Jennifer B: [00:07:13] Hmm.

[00:07:14] Jenn: [00:07:14] I’m curious if you think based on like, I, I think I go back to 2015 in SCOTUS ruling for marriage equality.

[00:07:22] Right? And like, so now we have this other Mo like significant ruling to me, it impacts way more people than marriage equality ever did or would. However, I feel like the pivot that we, as a community have taken from just the ruling, just coming out. To pivoting into advocating and being an ally and all of these different other ways is so much more profound than what happened in 2015 with, with marriage equality.

[00:07:55] Are you, does it feel that way to you as well? Either of you?

[00:08:00] [00:07:59] Steve: [00:07:59] Yes. I’ll let Jennifer go first.

[00:08:05] Jennifer B: [00:08:05] Oh gosh. Okay. Yeah. I. Yeah. I mean, I think that the black lives matter movement was, was going actually I think, I mean, I’d have to go back and kind of check the Genesis. So, but it was, um, you know, the, what I’m thinking about these days is that COVID the pandemic actually cleared the way for this movement to occur because it stopped us in our tracks.

[00:08:28] It trapped us behind our screens. It built the empathy for each other in a new way, because we were witnessing. Quite in a real way, each other’s lives and struggles. And so already the pandemic was working to, I think, um, normalize more of our identities. Um, you know, whether we liked it or not, our, our family was on display.

[00:08:48] Couldn’t be closeted anymore. Right. Couldn’t, you know, straighten my hair anymore. So, you know, um, couldn’t deny that I needed a mental health day. You know, and I needed to [00:09:00] be more overt about it because I felt like I needed to do that to survive. So like the truth of what we were going through and we were going through together, we were, we were having a solidarity moment that I don’t think it has is precedent.

[00:09:13] And then, so to see any images of George Floyd and others, it was, it just hit us. And I think I’m, I’m I, for one I’m really grateful and it’s ironic that I took a pandemic. To pay attention, but this stuff has been happening for a long time. So I think Jen, it’s a really interesting observation. Um, this sort of movement of allyship that’s happening right now.

[00:09:33] It didn’t happen in the same way. Um, it started to happen with the election, of course, right? 2016 and 17, which we all remember really well. And it was very painful, um, that we all thought we’re going down this road. And if I don’t use my voice, or if my company doesn’t use its voice, we’re going to be swept up into the dustbin of history.

[00:09:52] And we’re going to lose a whole generation of employees who literally. Like struggle everyday to feel seen and heard. So the law [00:10:00] it’s been building, it’s been, it’s been building in a beautiful way. And I think, um, we’ll look back and how that kind of historical perspective, which I think will be fascinating to understand how deep the seeds go back.

[00:10:10] Um, and then the LGBTQ communities realizing too the privilege within itself, you know, the, yeah. The fact that when we do, we have thought in the past, the assumption might have been for gay white men benefiting the most from the policy, the battles that we took on it left a bunch of us out of the battles that we took on a bunch of us out of progress.

[00:10:31] And so we, we are, it’s no accident. We’re all a microcosm of the world. Even in a diverse community. We repeat the same mistakes of our society, unless we’re not really careful of our privilege. Of our access of our intersectionality, of our de-centering of ourselves and recentering of others. So literally, like I’ve seen the community gets so much better about this.

[00:10:53] We have a long way to go. But I think we’re finally having the right conversation.

[00:10:58] Steve: [00:10:58] I agree with [00:11:00] Jennifer. And the only thing I would add is, you know, in, in the, especially the corporate environment, we, we tend to focus more on logic than emotion. And I think what’s happened with, with COVID-19 is that’s kind of not how it is right now that the emotions are so powerful because of the change because of that resiliency.

[00:11:18] And I think that’s, what’s really allowed. For people to have that empathy for all the situations around us, like you said. And I think that’s like, I mean, I’m so glass, half full kind of guy, and that’s what gets me excited is that the empathy is so much more there.

[00:11:32] Jennifer B: [00:11:32] That’s long overdue. Yeah.

[00:11:36] Jenn: [00:11:36] Yeah. I feel like there’s a number of rabbit holes.

[00:11:38] We can find ourselves down. Let’s let’s pull ourselves out before we go down and go down a rabbit hole. Yeah. Jen, what else? What are there, what else is on your

[00:11:50] Jennifer B: [00:11:50] mind? I mean, yeah, I guess, um, Steve, like, how have you been navigating, um, your, the pivots in your business? So I know that you, [00:12:00] like, all of us have kind of worn a lot of hats.

[00:12:02] I mean, for you, it includes this specialty and. Distance learning and online learning, which is actually how we met years ago. I remember that most about you that I was like, Oh, he does this. Okay, good to know. Maybe we can partner someday. Cause we both do LGBT leadership work. Actually. I wish I did more of it.

[00:12:20] You get to get the play in it all the time. But

[00:12:23] Steve: [00:12:23] I know

[00:12:24] Jennifer B: [00:12:24] instead of the whole business thing is, is right up your alley. And so I’m curious, like I know you were helping clients navigate, how do I show up in this virtual world in the best way while being authentic, too? Perhaps the struggles I’m facing every day.

[00:12:38] And, and, and is that sort of the very definition of professionalism shifting and should it shift? I think the answer is yes, but how have you been helping people like grapple with that and make sure like you’re striking that right balance of how they’re hearing or how they’re showing up right now.

[00:12:55] Steve: [00:12:55] Right. Uh, you know, when I started top dog learning group, a full, full time gig in [00:13:00] 2008, which was such an awesome time to start a business. What I found that worked really well is, you know, my doctorate is in instructional technology and just excited, like you said, and, and because organizations were trying to like, Scrambling around, what do we do?

[00:13:13] What do we do? You know, they were looking to online learning whether that be, uh, virtual classrooms or, you know, self paced stuff. Um, and that’s where TopDog actually got some traction. So flash forward to 2020, and I’m seeing the same thing happen again. But, but there’s a little bit different now. And I think you hit a really awesome point, Jennifer it’s, you know, we’re, we’re all on zoom now.

[00:13:35] Or whatever your preferred virtual classroom type thing is or webinar delivery, but regardless of what that is, it’s little windows into our own lives. And, and so one of the things that we’ve been trying to help clients do is help them shape that perspective as best as they can and, and, and be mindful of what that looks like.

[00:13:54] So for example, um, I, we do a webinar on how to do webinars, which is just so awesome that I love it. And it’s, [00:14:00] uh, but one of the things you talk about is, is just think about. Yeah, the messaging and the story you’re sending with what’s behind you or what you’re wearing or the lighting or whatever that looks like.

[00:14:10] And so you want to make sure that you’re putting your best foot forward. Um, no pun intended, cause you’re not moving, but, but being mindful of what messages are you sending? So. For example, I’ll pick on Jen grace for a moment. We do a lot of virtual coffee chocolates and all that good stuff. And I would see a cat walk cost.

[00:14:30] That’s fantastic. And I love that because that’s who Jen is and that’s her authentic self. And I think bringing that into the workplace from a professionalism is awesome. Now being mindful that, you know, is that something. I would recommend doing when you’re doing a virtual keynote for 500 people, probably not, but, but it’s being mindful and thinking through, and that’s what gets me excited about where we’re in here and how we can help is helping people think through that just a little bit more like, Hey, are you showing people your [00:15:00] nostrils?

[00:15:00] Probably not a good PR professional situation, but the books that are on your bookcase and have those be there. Of course you should. And I think that’s the cool part is just helping people think a little bit differently. On what story are they spending in this new, new, virtual reality that we have?

[00:15:17] Jenn: [00:15:17] I think it’s so important from a branding standpoint, because if you think of office environments, you’re in a cubicle farm or wherever your office might be.

[00:15:25] People may or may not actually go into it. You might be meeting in a conference room, so no one really ever gets that full flare of who you are. And so to your point about cats walking across my desk, I think anyone who does business with me knows that that’s just what happens. And I put my cat on our website when I first put up the whole team.

[00:15:44] And she’s the office guardian. Because I knew that someone sees any video and there’s a cat walking by and they’re like, what the hell? If they go to the website, it just shows that like, I’m not trying to hide this. Like I’m like, what you see is what you get here. We are. So, [00:16:00] right. And I think that’s really important just to kind of be your authentic self in whatever way that shows up.

[00:16:07] But I do think it’s even more important when you are on video where you don’t have the full kind of three dimension. Of that interaction together. Like, we’re just like, I have no idea what’s in front of you behind your monitor, as you’re talking to us, you have no idea what I’m looking at. And it’s just kind of fascinating to think of and see the different ways that people even kind of decorate what’s behind them.

[00:16:25] It says a lot about our personalities and going back to the LGBTQ side of things, like that’s our opportunity, whether we’re downplaying our identity or we’re just saying, screw it. This is who I am and just going with it.

[00:16:36] Steve: [00:16:36] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there’s, there’s a lot of opportunity to show that authenticity if you choose to beat.

[00:16:42] So.

[00:16:44] Jennifer B: [00:16:44] Right.

[00:16:45] Jenn: [00:16:45] I’m just going to say quickly. I see if I feel like your brand is always, like, I’m always complimenting you on your

[00:16:51] Jennifer B: [00:16:51] impactable.

[00:16:52] Jenn: [00:16:52] Like it’s just always just

[00:16:54] Jennifer B: [00:16:54] perfect.

[00:16:55] Jenn: [00:16:55] Yeah. Everything relying on us with everywhere. [00:17:00] Like it’s just,

[00:17:00] Jennifer B: [00:17:00] we will resist those stereotypes about, you know, the, the skill of your current curation.

[00:17:09] Like in bookshelf. Let me see if I can see that.

[00:17:17] Steve: [00:17:17] To be honest, if I turn the camera this way, it would look like that.

[00:17:21] Jenn: [00:17:21] Okay. This is the comparison. This is a lesbian motion,

[00:17:29] Jennifer B: [00:17:29] says

[00:17:30] Jenn: [00:17:30] you’re missing or pictures of chats in the

[00:17:31] Jennifer B: [00:17:31] bookshelves, either as a cat. There’s also a kitty here. Oh,

[00:17:35] Steve: [00:17:35] Oh yeah.

[00:17:37] Jennifer B: [00:17:37] That’s our little, our old man that passed away recently. But yeah, I think honestly, like we were talking in the early days of COVID how we all cover in the workplace. Right. We cover about so many things and I just love to go back to that point about it almost kicked us out of the nest in a way, a lot of us were very much obscuring.

[00:17:58] Who we, and we could [00:18:00] obscure who we were in a physical workplace. Right. So I think that it was, it was a two way street of covering. It was the anticipation that I’m not going to be loved and valued for who I am, but, but the anticipation means that we rightly or wrongly anticipate what’s going to happen.

[00:18:17] And so we downplay, we minimize, we have skewer, we conveniently omit. Yeah. And so what changed is that, believe it or not strangely, that it took the distance. Through technology to actually strangely drive more empathy. I just think that’s so fascinating that we never could have imagined that. And that again, sort of led to this, this huge tripping point we see now of, of, um, actually getting to the root of racism in organizations, which I never thought.

[00:18:46] We would get two in my lifetime. So knows. And you know, Steve, like the organizations we talk to are they, they kick and scream through this stuff. Like they have not. And, and now they’re all panicking and getting [00:19:00] on our calendar and saying, Oh my gosh, like it’s a mutiny at my company. What do I do? And I’m like, well, what were you doing?

[00:19:05] Like why? Like we were telling you. But things were broken. I mean, you can be this company, that’s getting all the awards in the world and have a closeted LGBTQ people at the same time. And you know, those things can be true. And the same kind of thing was true for black employees, Brown in place, people with disabilities, like the extent of the hiding and the covering and the mental energy, emotional energy of feeling small, struggling to be heard and seen and respected dealing with micro progressions every single day.

[00:19:35] Like it was. It’s been painful for a long time, but we haven’t been heard about it. And now we’re being, um, I hope we can sustain the attention on this so that real change can happen. I think that’s going to be the question and I feel like that’s up to allies to really make that sustaining.

[00:19:52] Steve: [00:19:52] Don’t, you know, you bring up a great point talking about resiliency, you know, How many months into this [00:20:00] stuff.

[00:20:00] And for even the most resilient people, they’re like, yeah, this is hard. And so we need to make sure that we keep it going, whether that be, like you said earlier about practicing self care, having that awareness of our energy level, where our batteries are for this stuff. And we’re finding that, you know, maybe I need to just take a break and reach out to you.

[00:20:21] XYZ other people who are doing this and saying, you know, let’s, let’s just have a coffee and relax for a moment. And then we’ll kind of get back up and do that fight. I think I keep going back to the mindfulness thing, but it’s really having awareness of my own self and where I’m at with my ability to be.

[00:20:38] Resilient in, in both these changing times and these uncertain times, when you look at a lot of the research on resiliency and how people either survive or thrive in times of change. One of the biggest ones that typically bubbles up to the top is people who can’t deal with a situation. And, um, and I think that’s, that’s so massive.

[00:20:58] And, and if you peel [00:21:00] back what’s happening now, The people who are, are really not doing so well, are the ones who can’t deal with the question marks, you know, I’ve been furloughed, what does that mean? My business completely imploded. Where does that, where do I go? You know, and these are just surface stuff.

[00:21:13] I mean, then you throw into the questions about. You know, social equality and justice and, and all the other stuff that’s happening. And it’s a lot. And there’s research on the saturation point of, of people being able to deal with change. You know, I remember I was working with a client years ago, um, and I was on a team doing one change manager project.

[00:21:34] We were doing, um, uh, technology. And so my job was to help their employees. Take the technology, but as it turns out, we were one of 12 change initiatives happening at this, this large utility company at one point. And each one had its own change manager, which, you know, like my peers. And I remember we all got together and we said, who here is going to tell this company that they’re going to fail at a half of these because of this.

[00:21:57] And so we all went in together and said, okay, Look, I mean, we were [00:22:00] all different consulting companies. That was the funny part. And we’re just like, y’all are putting us in malpractice area because you’re going to totally saturate your people and you’re not going to succeed in all of these. So pick your priorities and we’ll go from there.

[00:22:11] And they’re like, what? And it’s true because humans are still the same way. We have so much that we can take. And I think this is an extraordinary time for the amount of change and we just have to be mindful. Where’s our, our, our, to be point personally.

[00:22:25] Jenn: [00:22:25] Do you have any resources? I know we’re coming up toward the end of our time, but do you have any ideas or tips around just kind of resiliency?

[00:22:33] Like I know for me, like I even include resiliency in the subtitle of my forthcoming memoir, just because I don’t know how to be any other way than to be resilient and to have a plan a through Z for every single thing. So that is just my natural default state, whether I wanted it to be or not. But for those who don’t necessarily have.

[00:22:53] Deep Wells of resiliency to pull from, are there tips or guidance that we can provide to help [00:23:00] people through these things?

[00:23:01] Steve: [00:23:01] Um, and that was not a canned question, but actually I have a self paced training class I created to do exactly that upper video. And I did that at the beginning of this. Cause one of my top dogs said, Steve didn’t, we have like some sort of one day workshop on resilience that we used to do for clients.

[00:23:15] And like we did. And she’s like, can you do something with that? I’m like, yeah, I think I can. So I sat here one weekend and just did some stuff. And what I did was I boiled it down to two, what I’ve seen as the top three things that folks can do to be more resilient and to really, and there’s a, um, a link we can share in the chat, um, you know, top dog.click forward slash resilience, not very creative and clever.

[00:23:36] Um, but I talked, I talked about the top three things and, and in, in the bucket, they are having a more positive view of the world having a positive self concept or self esteem, right. And then ways the district usually handle ambiguity and it’s a really quick, easy, cheap somethings class. I made my husband go through it because he is very change adverse and Andy, and he’s like, okay, I’m kind of biased clearly.

[00:24:00] [00:23:59] Cause I’ve been married for 20 years to the writer, but he’s like, it actually helped, especially the ambiguity piece. And it’s really, that’s the hardest one. And, and there’s, so there’s a strategy to help you. Cause one of the things we typically see for people is okay, When you, when you analyze where they’re channeling their energy, it’s typically in some place where they can’t control nor influence.

[00:24:20] And when you have that aha moment, then it’s like, okay, well now can I move that energy and channel it towards the stuff I can either control, or I can either just influence something that’s going to happen. And that’s, that’s just a really nice thing to think about.

[00:24:34] Jenn: [00:24:34] We have a comment that came in, just came in that said, you know, love loving this conversation.

[00:24:39] And, um, everyone should be investigating the resilience program. And I think whomever, this person is right. We can’t see who the commenters are, but I would agree because I think resiliency honestly, is the thing that’s going to get us all as a collective humanity. Yeah. As a, as an American in America here to [00:25:00] November.

[00:25:00] Right? So I think we have to be resilient if we are going to have the stamina to get us through the election. Because that’s, you know, that come up that impacts our lives very, very differently. And obviously it affects, affects so many different marginalized communities very differently than, than others.

[00:25:19] So I think resiliency is going to be the thing that keeps, keeps us bouncing back up of like, all right, I’m ready to fight one more time. It’s like one of those clowns. Yeah. Like, I feel like that’s what, like, we’re all like basically

[00:25:39] Steve: [00:25:39] here we go again.

[00:25:40] Jennifer B: [00:25:40] Here we go again.

[00:25:44] Jenn: [00:25:44] Oh, can I ask

[00:25:48] Steve: [00:25:48] you two a question? Um, what’s, what’s the word like when all of us were on the other side of whatever this is, um, what’s the one thing you hope is a lasting change [00:26:00] from our collective experience. Now,

[00:26:04] Jenn: [00:26:04] for me personally. I would like to see things continued to be slowed down a little bit. I’m not saying I’m not saying to be slow because that’s not, that’s not my natural default style in general, but I there’s something that’s been very comforting about just being slower with things.

[00:26:25] And I feel like I’ve gone through waves, like, and Jen and I have been doing this, this is number 16. So we have 15 other conversations that we’ve had. And I’m sure if someone watched just the first five minutes of all of them, you can see our collective ups and downs throughout all this. But I feel like just having that level of like,

[00:26:41] Jennifer B: [00:26:41] I don’t know,

[00:26:42] Jenn: [00:26:42] quiet.

[00:26:43] I don’t even know what the word is, but like just some, I don’t know that we don’t have to be on 24 seven. We don’t have to be accessible 24 seven. We don’t have to be perfect. 24 seven. Like all of those things I would personally love to see whether it’ll happen or not. I don’t know, but that’s my

[00:26:58] Jennifer B: [00:26:58] wishlist.

[00:27:00] [00:26:59] Yeah. Not returning to the battle day. I mean, my wish list is that, um, You know, our anti-racism work as a country in our classrooms, in our workplaces, in our personal lives, becomes a part of our hygiene as Americans. You know, that we start to really work on that and chip away at that. And. Also, you know, look at the systems that have propped up all of that, that haven’t really been questioned, at least by people with power they’ve been questioned.

[00:27:30] But again, who’s been questioning them has a lot to do with whether they’ve been changed or not. So my hope is that we can kind of figure out this plan, the psychology of those, of the power and how to weave our way through without the defensiveness, the resistance, the, the apathy that wants to take back over.

[00:27:51] The, um, the, uh, I’m a good person, defense, you know, just working through a lot of those and helping people understand the real [00:28:00] issues and then charging them with responsibility to change them, which shouldn’t be on the shoulders of those who are suffering with the hands of these institutions, but could, that’s not a threatening

[00:28:10] Jenn: [00:28:10] conversation that it’d

[00:28:11] Jennifer B: [00:28:11] become.

[00:28:13] Could we view it as something that’s going to make our society and our democracy more perfect. Could we look at it as not threatening what I have because I’m giving more to others and making space for that. Like how can we, how can we use? Because I feel that the resistance is drawing and I I’m like, how do I, I 15 different ways to try to get through that.

[00:28:35] I’m like, The road in trying to bury through the,

[00:28:39] Jenn: [00:28:39] through

[00:28:39] Jennifer B: [00:28:39] the fence and trying to figure out like, how do we even use that? Because it’s a lot of noise and it’s not helpful. And it’s, I think I’m keeping a lot of people from seeing what’s really going on. It’s kind of reminds me of like the people who are like, but what about the looting?

[00:28:54] You know, right now I’m like, you’re focusing on the wrong thing. It’s not what this is about. Stop it. [00:29:00] Target has insurance. Yeah, just, you know, but I just, and I’m growing, I’m growing in really impatient. I am like, you’re all on the edge. Those of us who’ve been in this. And I cannot even imagine that’s me as a white person.

[00:29:16] I am sick to death of trying to like, explain this in 15 different ways, like a pretzel, like, and I get through and I, you know, so I’m at a loss that I just chipping away at it. I don’t know.

[00:29:30] Steve: [00:29:30] Yeah. I, if I have to explain to somebody why all lives matter is not a good thing to say, I’m going to explode. Um, but, but you, you know, and so my hope, Dennis, my own question is that the patience and empathy that we have.

[00:29:46] Those of you who are, um, in this midst and who are trying to be the good allies and, and beyond just state, especially the empathy part, because I think if the empathy sticks, then the apathy doesn’t go away [00:30:00] or it doesn’t, it doesn’t set it. I mean, and I think that’s, that’s, I think the exciting part that if we can keep reminding people, you remember what that felt like when you saw what you saw on TV, over the glass hat, sadly.

[00:30:12] Just in a couple months. Well, well, well beyond remember that and I hope people remember that.

[00:30:18] Jennifer B: [00:30:18] Yeah. I

[00:30:19] Jenn: [00:30:19] think it’s a generational thing. If you, if we just think about like how many parents right now, we’re having conversations with their kids. Having really hard conversations with their kids. Not. Black parents talking to their children about how to be, how to have a safe encounter or, uh, you know, a non life threatening encounter with police.

[00:30:38] But it’s white parents. We’re having those conversations on what this means to them and how they can be allies from a very, very young age. And I think to me, that’s, I’m hopeful and optimistic that, that this current generation. We’ll be a much better generation than any of ours because of the conversations that parents have been forced to have with their [00:31:00] children, even if it’s like uncomfortable and they don’t want to have it, like at this point, you’re at, you’re at a complete detriment.

[00:31:05] If you’re not addressing that with your child, regardless of what your child’s age is. I think, I don’t know for me, that’s also something to be optimistic about and yes, obviously that’s going to take decades before it comes to fruition, but you know, maybe there maybe there’s hope somewhere along the lines at the end of the tunnel.

[00:31:22] Jennifer B: [00:31:22] Yeah, that’s a good, good note to

[00:31:25] Steve: [00:31:25] that is a good note to end on.

[00:31:27] Jennifer B: [00:31:27] I think that is a good note to end on.

[00:31:29] Jenn: [00:31:29] Well, thank you, Steve. Thank you for having me.

[00:31:33] Steve: [00:31:33] Yes. It’s lovely to be in the middle of a gen sandwich for a Monday morning. It’s lovely.

[00:31:38] Jennifer B: [00:31:38] When I say it could be a real hug.

[00:31:40] Steve: [00:31:40] I know, I know. I know

[00:31:43] Jennifer B: [00:31:43] it. Tear and keep up all the good work.

[00:31:46] Steve: [00:31:46] Thank you. You too. Number 17 onward.

[00:31:48] Jenn: [00:31:48] Yes.