Beyond Ally The Pursuit of Racial Justice Jenn T. Grace, Dr. Maysa Akbar, and Jennifer Brown 


[00:00:00] Jenn: [00:00:00] Good morning, Jennifer Brown. 

[00:00:04] Maysa: [00:00:04] Good 

[00:00:05] Jenn B: [00:00:05] morning, Jen. Grace, how are ya? Happy, 

[00:00:08] Jenn: [00:00:08] happy Wednesday. Indeed. I feel like I’m energized. I have a lot of energy this morning and I’m really excited for the conversation that we were about to have with dr. Mesa Ackbar. He Mesa

[00:00:22] Jenn B: [00:00:22] it’s a big day today. Tell us more about 

[00:00:24] Maysa: [00:00:24] it. Oh, my gosh, such a big day, you know, I mean, you both know you’re both authors, uh, and it doesn’t get old. Right. Right. Like when this day comes, I like this morning, my husband was like, so how do you feel? And I was like, Um, so yeah, anticlimactic and I feel this way, he was like, okay, like two sentences, you know, cause I was going on, but it’s okay.

[00:00:51] It’s an amazing feeling because it’s like, you’ve been working on this piece for so long, you know, the editing processes. So [00:01:00] painful. Um, and you want to have it be just the most perfect, um, you know, craft a perfect masterpiece that you’ve created and then it’s out. Right. And it’s like, okay, now it has to do what it’s going to do.

[00:01:17] So that, yeah, that that’s, um, I don’t know that happiness or elation or relief captures any of those feelings, but I know that a culmination of that is probably how I feel. Yeah. 

[00:01:29] Jenn: [00:01:29] And I want the, those that are watching to understand the Herculean effort in what you put in to getting this book done now, because our original release schedule wasn’t until October.

[00:01:40] And so we had a conversation, I think it was probably maybe the last week of April. Where we’re like, we need to do this now. And it is July 15th. So in terms of like expediting the timeline that this is a really kind of crazy quick timeline and without professing a single thing, because it is an [00:02:00] absolute thing of beauty.

[00:02:00] Obviously I’m biased because, you know, PYP is the publisher and all, but clearly I’m biased to all of your work, but I’ve just I’m. So I just, I love days like this and I love that we’re actually having this conversation on the launch day, because so often we’re having conversations like, Oh, the book came out last week, the book’s coming out next week, but like, we are here right in the middle of all of the, the book launch.

[00:02:23] Jitters, if you will, because you know, you’ve been up since four in the morning, there’s a million things going on. So, yes. Um, but I know that Jen and I want to talk to you today about, really about the book itself and around kind of like the intention with this book, what you’re hoping to, how you’re hoping to impact people with it.

[00:02:40] And Jen and I are just gonna kind of go, go robe with a whole, whole litany questions because that’s how we operate as you know, cause you were a guest on this, uh, on this unnamed show. Um, I think it was like maybe the last month. It wasn’t that long ago you were here talking to us about, about your work as well.

[00:02:55] So, Jen, I’m going to turn it over to you to ask the first hard hitting [00:03:00] question. That’s kind of on your mind. Yeah. 

[00:03:02] Jenn B: [00:03:02] Yeah. Thanks Jen. And my sec, congratulations. Again, I don’t want to like gloss over it. It’s a really big deal to be sitting here today of all day with you. And, you know, we all know the mixed feelings, but the most important thing is this is out in the world and it’s going to have so much impact that you can’t even imagine sitting here right now.

[00:03:20] So, um, it’s just really profound to share this moment with you. So, 

[00:03:24] Jenn: [00:03:24] um, yeah, so I have 

[00:03:26] Jenn B: [00:03:26] a question. 

[00:03:27] Jenn: [00:03:27] I just want 

[00:03:27] Jenn B: [00:03:27] to read some of the chapter titles in this book for people to give their audience a sense of what you’re covering, because it’s very, it’s important and provocative. And I think very much on point on the first page, the first chapter is white trauma.

[00:03:42] Then there’s deconstructing whiteness, white guilt, white savior, um, in, um, Unpacking white women as allies and pursuit of racial justice. And you talk about something called the equity broker, which I think is fascinating. Um, so that’s a [00:04:00] lot, 

[00:04:00] Jenn: [00:04:00] but I just want to locate people, 

[00:04:02] Jenn B: [00:04:02] um, in terms of what this book is about.

[00:04:04] It’s a lot of things that we talk about. I know I talk about endlessly, um, and that, I think we’re very much at the beginning. Of our learning journey about what all these things mean. So your book is going to really help people like clue in, in a time of a lot of uncertainty about like, what do I do?

[00:04:20] What’s going to have the most impact, what if I’m uncomfortable? But I know I have to do it anyway. Um, what am I not seeing in myself that I need to see? Um, and, and really getting real with ourselves about our voice for change. Um, and so I know you talk a lot about intention versus impact, and maybe I thought we could start there.

[00:04:40] Um, 

[00:04:41] Jenn: [00:04:41] what is 

[00:04:41] Jenn B: [00:04:41] that dichotomy 

[00:04:42] Jenn: [00:04:42] and how do we get stuck 

[00:04:44] Jenn B: [00:04:44] in that framework? And what do you recommend in order to kind of break out of that into real impact? That makes a difference. 

[00:04:51] Maysa: [00:04:51] Yeah. I mean, I th I think highlighting what you said in terms of. Everyone coming into this realization, [00:05:00] this awakening about the racial unrest in this country, um, is, you know, what we can take for granted is that everyone’s at a different starting point.

[00:05:11] And one of the things that, you know, Jen and the publishing team and the editors, and I went back and forth about it is, um, making sure that we captured. Uh, people who were in different parts of their allyship process is I think that we can make assumptions that, you know, you already understand allyship.

[00:05:33] We can make assumptions that you already understand the different variables that need to be dealt with and brought to the conscious level. Um, that kinda, it was along with your whiteness and, and I didn’t want to make those assumptions. You know, I think the beauty about the book is that if you’ve already.

[00:05:50] Uh, if you already had a point kind of acknowledgement and you’re dealing with your privilege and you’re figuring out how, you know, how you want to better, [00:06:00] um, being community with communities of color and with people of color, um, then you can go right into how to pursue racial justice. Right? You can skip over that.

[00:06:10] Like that’s the beauty and the dynamic aspect of, of, um, Being part of this process, but if you don’t, yeah, I am a believer that you do repeat that history. And if you don’t understand history in terms of how we got here, then we will be in a perpetual cycle of repeating that history in different ways. It will manifest itself differently.

[00:06:32] But when you unpack it to the core, the history remains the same. Right. And so, um, that was, was really the, my, at least my intention. In terms of the impact that I wanted to have, but, you know, I love, I love this. And I was telling you guys earlier that I’ve been toying around, I’ve been up some toying around with this idea of when do we sit in intention and not move to impact.

[00:06:58] And with this process [00:07:00] of allyship, it’s very easy to sit in intention for a really long time. I intend to do well. I’m a well-intended white person. I have good intentions, you know, you can fill in all the blanks before and after the warning tension and we consider an intention, right. And the idle forever, right?

[00:07:19] The, what this book does, right? The challenges you to think about how to activate that intention. So if you do have an intention, how do you move that intention to impact? And then it gives you a clear guide. You know, one of the things that I’m most proud of is the development of the allyship identity model.

[00:07:37] Because it allows you to sort of clarify where you are in transition of this model and to be able to be authentic and being in one of those stages and to think about, do I want to stay in this stage? Do I have characteristics of stage one and stage two and perhaps I’m ready to move to stage two. Um, and how do I [00:08:00] want to identify the key word around the model is identity.

[00:08:04] Allyship is an identity. It’s not a trend. It’s not something that happened yesterday, but not today. It’s something that you have to live by an exercise. And it’s the spirit by which you want to show up in this world. 

[00:08:19] Jenn: [00:08:19] I think framing it in the context of an identity is so incredibly powerful because everything that you just said is.

[00:08:28] Completely spot on. Like it’s not something that you can just kind of like dip your toe in one day. Like, Oh, today I want to be an ally today. Speak up for some injustice that I saw, but you know, tomorrow I’m just tired. I’m not in the mood. I’m not gonna, like, it has to be like a full embodiment of that word in everything that you do in every injustice that you see, whether it’s something small or something absolutely huge.

[00:08:50] Like we as Jen and I, at least sitting here as white women, like it’s our responsibility. To speak up when something is not right. And so often I think [00:09:00] people are, they just don’t know where they fall in this. So I love that there’s a model and kind of a framework around this for people to be like, okay, I’m I’m, I’m here.

[00:09:08] I know I need to get here, but I don’t really know how I’m going to, I’m going to go from one to the other and worked in this book is really kind of giving such tactical steps that they can take toward that. And I know Jen, you’re always talking about, um, just different like allyship in many, many different regards to, in terms of like a continuum.

[00:09:26] Um, what, um, you know, like, Jen, what are you. What are you taking away, I guess, or seeing as such strong potential for people to, to be starting in one place and really having this book and everyone’s work, just kind of moving them closer to actually seeing some change, like, and making an impact. Going back to the question, 

[00:09:48] Jenn B: [00:09:48] we really have to keep our eye on the prize.

[00:09:49] Right. It’s it’s real change, but I think, um, yeah, I love my son. My son are so aligned as ever to think about what is the right next step. Um, and if the next [00:10:00] step looks different, depending on where we are in our journey. And I would never throw someone yeah. In the deep end that doesn’t have the muscle built 

[00:10:07] Maysa: [00:10:07] that they need, 

[00:10:09] Jenn B: [00:10:09] because I don’t want people to get hurt.

[00:10:11] And I don’t want them to hurt others. And so I think that the process of, of growth that ally muscle is a stumbling forward. It is a one step forward, two steps back, it’s getting it wrong and getting feedback and going back and doing it again and trying it differently. Right. It’s I always think of the book growth mindset by Carol Dweck, which is about failing forward.

[00:10:31] You know, it’s a principle that we’re very familiar with in the business world. And yet when it comes to the concept of diversity and inclusion and allyship, we’re very hard on ourselves. We’re very, 

[00:10:41] Maysa: [00:10:41] we have to show up 

[00:10:42] Jenn B: [00:10:42] perfectly or not at all. And I think that’s an element of white supremacy culture, which I’ve been studying lately.

[00:10:49] Perfectionism is the number one hallmark of white supremacy culture. And I think it’s really interesting that a lot of allies don’t take don’t make a move because they don’t want to be imperfect. 

[00:10:58] Maysa: [00:10:58] Yeah, 

[00:10:58] Jenn B: [00:10:58] and we [00:11:00] can’t be afraid of that because it’s going to be impacted. It’s going to stumble. It’s going to wobble.

[00:11:04] It’s going to have, we’re going to mess up and we have to, I expect that. And I think one of the ways I do that for myself is to say disclaimers all the time. I’ll say like, I am learning this. I am endeavoring to do this. I may not get this. 

[00:11:18] Maysa: [00:11:18] Right. Okay. 

[00:11:19] Jenn B: [00:11:19] Here is my 

[00:11:19] Jenn: [00:11:19] intent, 

[00:11:21] Jenn B: [00:11:21] but I am very open and seeking information on my impact.

[00:11:25] And so we need to literally be like calibrating with people all the time to say like, did that have the desired impact? That’s the only way we’re going to learn. And I think it’s fascinating. My sub, because what we’re getting back right now, realistically 

[00:11:39] Jenn: [00:11:39] is fatigue. 

[00:11:40] Maysa: [00:11:40] Yes, 

[00:11:41] Jenn B: [00:11:41] I’m at the peak. The very people we are trying to ally for are like, I don’t want to have this conversation right now.

[00:11:47] Jenn: [00:11:47] We go do the work, come back to me 

[00:11:50] Jenn B: [00:11:50] when you’re done, you know, come back to me when you have some competency built. And I think that’s a really important factor too, to consider is like, is, is in the absence of [00:12:00] feedback. And you can’t. Can you still do the work effectively that you need to do as a white person?

[00:12:05] It’s sort of a question for you. I wondered if you mold that over as you were writing. 

[00:12:09] Maysa: [00:12:09] Yeah. I mean, the beauty about being in the space that I’m in is that I have like so many colleagues that, you know, are in my genre of work. As you guys know, when you’re, you know, in the publishing world or in the diversity world, you create your village.

[00:12:24] And I have like my sisters and my brothers work that we talk to each other all the time. Right. And it’s like, Um, you know, I just had a wonderful conversation with, uh, with a colleague and a friend, um, this past week. And she was just saying, you know, like people like black folks who are just tired, they’re tired.

[00:12:44] I want to have to talk about they don’t have, but like, they’re just trying to survive. So imagine having to now sit there and educate. You know, the way people around what this process is going to look like for them and everyone having a different starting point, a different world view a different upbringing, a different [00:13:00] way of managing race talk, you know?

[00:13:03] Um, so, so going and having to sit through that is an energy sat at best, right? If not like just another monumental thing. Yeah. That has to be carried. So I think that for a lot of. You know, POC is where, where this book is going to be critical is to say, look, I’ve got a really good colleague. That’s been a lot of time doing many years of research because by the way, while, while like Jen said, we sped this up, you know, from a fall winter slash possibly even 20, 21 release to like today, um, and got this done in like six weeks, um, This work really started at the tail end of urban trauma.

[00:13:47] And then, I don’t know if you remember this, right. You remember? And so urban trauma, which was my first book that came out with three parts, had a fourth part, which was about [00:14:00] allyship and the publishing team was like, Nope, take it out. I’ll take it out. They took my entire thing out. Jen Brown. Can you believe that like, as author, you know, that’s a blow to the yeah.

[00:14:11] You go like, what’s my what’s wrong with my child. Right. And they had to like talk me off the ledge, but I think what was so important is that as we talked about it, we want it urban trauma. To be a piece for people of color and in particular for black people in this country who couldn’t yeah. Identify and understand how race-based trauma was manifesting in themselves and what that pain looked like.

[00:14:37] And it didn’t fit to talk about allyship in that space. That space needed to be sacred. Right, right. And now, so that was back in 2017. So this work around allyship I already was, you can tell by my intention in creating a fourth part to the urban trauma book. That I knew [00:15:00] of talking to white allies in terms of I needed to do as next step.

[00:15:07] What’s the next step. Right? And so this was the natural build-out. This was now like, let’s take this and really flesh it out and then COBIT hit. And then, you know, George Floyd bring on a Tesla, you know, it was just like one thing after another, you know, my Aubrey and Andy. And, and it was, it was time. It was here.

[00:15:28] Um, and so that was, you know, that’s how it all came to fruition. 

[00:15:33] Jenn: [00:15:33] So go ahead, John.

[00:15:40] Oh, I see. There’s a, there’s a visitor behind her visitor. I know that like, some of the things that we’ve talked about is, you know, like people have had the time to kind of fumble through. Their missteps and their faults and like being on this journey and not really knowing what to do, how to do it. [00:16:00] And just kind of like really, I think fumble is probably the best word for it.

[00:16:03] Cause people do have good intentions, but that does not mean they come out the way in which they do 10 of them. And so do you have, is there any, like, is there a particular area in the book that kind of addresses, you know, like the. How do they maybe recalibrate themselves? Cause like now, like we’re talking like this is where the rubber meets the road, right?

[00:16:22] So like now’s the time we’d had our time to fumble through this, to screw things up to misspeak, to say something that we thought was actually supportive and really, it was really insensitive. Like it’s a lot of stuff like that. Are there, like, is there any particular thing that it kind of comes to you?

[00:16:39] That’s someone could be like, like it just kind of giving them that like aha moment of like. Now I know what I need to do because I’ve had my time to screw this up. Like now is the time like that is now the past. Like we now have to move forward. 

[00:16:51] Maysa: [00:16:51] Yeah. I mean, we learn from our mistakes. Right. You know, Henry Ford said that, um, failure is just another opportunity to do it better, [00:17:00] you know, to do it again, that it better or something like that.

[00:17:02] Right. And so I think that. We have to accept perpetual failure in this space, you know, and I think that, you know, what Jen was talking about in terms of, um, fumbling and in terms of not being perfect at this is going to be so important, um, and seeking out the right support at each fumble. Um, you know, and that may be sometimes a person of color who’s willing to sit down and, you know, I.

[00:17:33] For example, my advocacy comes in being able to educate and teach. So I’m not tired. I’m not tired. You know, I don’t feel the weight of the world. In fact, I get energized by this. Okay. I can’t speak to everyone. Some people it’s going to be the protests. Other people are going to be initiatives and programs.

[00:17:51] Other folks are going to be, you know, just trying to maintain their sanity and their own mental wellness. So everyone has something different. [00:18:00] So if there are questions, if there’s a fumble, what I am challenging as a call to action is be authentic. If you have a question, ask it, don’t sit with that question.

[00:18:13] And then. You know, talk to somebody who isn’t in the allyship process that gives you feedback. That is either going to support a narrative that you have that might be untrue. Um, you know, so go speak to a more advanced ally, you know, reach out to Jen Brown, reach out to you, Jen grace, you know, and say, well, you know, you all have been in this work for a while.

[00:18:36] What, what happens if for example, I put out a corporate statement. Around, you know, the racial unrest and what my company is ready and prepared to do about this, but I’ve done nothing ever since, right? That’s the fumble. The fumble is, I was quick to make sure that I reacted. It was quick to make sure I responded.

[00:18:59] I [00:19:00] put out a story, strong statement. How do I back that now? That’s how you have to copyright. So like all of us who read those statements are anticipating and waiting. The call to action. The next action step. Right? What happens if I am part of a table where an initiative is, is in suing, you know, redesigning of law enforcement and yeah, there are no social services, uh, agencies of color around the table.

[00:19:33] Well, if I’m an ally, I say, we need to invite every single social service, mental health, you know, nonprofit ran by people of color on that, to this table. And not only am I willing to advocate for that because that’s what the advocate role is in that stage. But as an equity broker, I will give up my seat [00:20:00] if necessary to make sure that that voice is around this table.

[00:20:04] Right? That’s the process of learning. That’s the process of pushing beyond the fumble when you can, and when you’re able to, to back that up. So that, that would be for me, um, how you move beyond the fumble. 

[00:20:19] Jenn: [00:20:19] I mean, I love that so much. And I think what you’re saying, like in so many ways, I think that, and I feel like I’ve seen, I mean, just memes and things of people, like, you know, you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, but I think when it comes to allyship, you have to really be okay with being called out when you make a misstep and not taking it personal and taking it as a learning lesson and opportunity to say like, all right, like I really have the best intention here, but.

[00:20:45] I did not realize that what I said had some kind of baked in racism to it. I didn’t realize that that expression that I used was whatever it is. And just being okay with somebody being like, Oh yeah, like that is not okay. And that is wrong. And then you taking that and being like [00:21:00] noted, and now I’m going to make sure that I teach others what I just learned too.

[00:21:03] But I think also what you’re saying, like being willing to give up your seat, like that is such an uncomfortable position for people to say, like, I work really hard. To get my, my seat at this table, but I’m willing to give it up as a result to make sure that someone else’s voices that is not, not being heard at this moment.

[00:21:20] And I think that can be really, really difficult for people. But again, it’s like, you need to move your own ego aside because bigger than you as one individual, it sucks so much more of a, of a community type of effort for. So many different, so many different people, 

[00:21:35] Maysa: [00:21:35] but I think even inherent in what you’re saying, it’s so important, right?

[00:21:39] Because I, I believe that the way that we as humans, regardless of the racial construct, you know, um, cause you know, race is a, is a construct that we have used in our society to leverage right. Um, different privileges based on skin color. And I think that the. Interesting [00:22:00] part about this is that everything is seen like a pie.

[00:22:03] Like really, are you asking me to give up my piece of the pie here? You know, and what I’m saying is that this is not a pie. We’re not slicing, you know, what belongs to you and what belongs to me. And we’re really going to engage in the process of allyship and beyond, because this is really, you know, we can debate on a whole, another segment about.

[00:22:24] What allyship means. And, and, you know, while the book is called B, it’s called beyond ally for a reason. Um, and so the most important part is to see it, that this is a partnership, so you’re not giving up anything. Right. Instead what you’re saying is like, Hmm, let me evaluate. How I got here and perhaps what opportunities were afforded to me because of my privilege.

[00:22:51] How am I, the benefactor, um, you know, generationally of being positioned to be here and how can [00:23:00] I then support the partnership with a person of color, a community of color, a organization of color, you know? And that’s really the question, not what am I giving up. But who am I willing to partner with elevate and lift so that I am having to use my power and privilege to support how you know, these, these communities of colors of color can, can.

[00:23:32] Manifest what they need to heal themselves. Right. Like I think that that’s the difference versus like me dictating what it is that they need to be healed. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:23:43] Jenn B: [00:23:43] That’s so true. So good. There’s a, there’s a question in a comment about, um, the moral superiority dance from one white 

[00:23:52] Maysa: [00:23:52] activist to another.

[00:23:54] Jenn B: [00:23:54] Which is fascinating, right? It’s like, well, I’m a better ally, you know, look at me. And I think there’s a gendered [00:24:00] aspect to this too. If I may, as a white woman, like looking at. Like the white men that are really, really acknowledging their proximity to power and funding proximity. It’s actual, it’s like in the power I’m, I’m proximate to power there, power.

[00:24:15] And so seeing somebody like that really not make it about themselves and decentering themselves and sharing our platform and like re you know, making sure the voices are at the table and that they take a back seat given they’re given how powerful. Our society has, has deemed them. That is a really beautiful thing to witness.

[00:24:34] And I try to, I try to, I try to make sure that I’ve witnessed that often so that I can have the help. I need to continue to do this work because that’s why I invest so much in men’s communities. And I’m watching very gratefully. How men are articulating this. Um, because many men are going to be looking at other men and white men will look at white men and they will follow if, if the world doesn’t end when true allyship and beyond allyship is [00:25:00] exhibited, we need more examples of what that looks like, so that we can all norm to a new model.

[00:25:06] That’s what we really need. And people need those examples. Um, to understand that it’s doable and that actually, it looks incredibly beautiful when it’s done in an authentic de-centering way. The sharing of power is not a fight. It’s not, you know, the pie isn’t finite, it’s actually endlessly expanding.

[00:25:25] And one plus one equals three, and you’re not giving up anything to admit that you don’t know the answers and you’re going to get things wrong and you’re going to do your best. Like I just wish even just that. To hear people talk about that openly and publicly, especially senior people would be an incredible example for us to follow.

[00:25:44] Maysa: [00:25:44] I think, you know, as, as we’re kind of wrapping this up, one of the things that was most important to me is in the process of writing this book, those that considered themselves allies, how would they step up? Right. And how would, how [00:26:00] here I am writing about allyship. And then I was challenged along the way in terms of seeing like who truly, um, despite self-definition stepped up to the plate, And it took the risk that needed to be taken to, to, um, to ally with me in this process.

[00:26:19] Right. Okay. And not everyone did. And then some incredible, incredible people did. Right. Like, and, and that was like, sort of like the job, the posing of all of this. Right. And I had to deal with that. And I remember having a very emotional moment. I think it was last week, right. 10 where I was just like, gosh, you know, It was a realization to me around sometimes devastating disappointment when someone has proclaimed to be an ally and then they don’t deliver for you, you know?

[00:26:50] And then at the same time, like, Oh, like good and bad all at the same time, like, right. And then at the same time, like the ones that were like texting and making sure like things were getting out. [00:27:00] Getting interviews done. And, you know, even Justin tantra who wrote my forward, like delivering that in the middle of like songwriting and doing all this other, you know, stuff that he was doing.

[00:27:10] And he said, and, and, and even acknowledging where he has felt the most powerful conversation that I had with him before he wrote the forward was like, I need to acknowledge what I have failed in an ally, you know? And, and he like, that’s how I want to position this forward. And I’m like, do it, you know, do it because he had considered himself, you know, as, as a member of the LGBTQ community, right?

[00:27:34] Like it’s like, here I am. As a queer male. And like, I define myself as an ally and then I read your book and I’m like, all right,

[00:27:46] let me take three steps back. And then 

[00:27:49] Jenn: [00:27:49] it’s so powerful. I have full body chills reading the forward. When you, when it came in, like it is so. It’s so encapsulates [00:28:00] everything that your book is setting out to do in the world right now. And I’m just so, I’m so excited that we are here partnering with you on your second book, because it’s just so amazing.

[00:28:11] And for anyone who’s been watching this cause we’ve had people coming in and out this whole time. That, you know, the book’s available pretty much wherever you can buy a book, you know, support, whatever, whatever bookstore you are going for. Um, right now we’re certainly we’re going for Amazon bestselling status.

[00:28:24] We’re going from New York times. Like we were trying to like really, really come out of the Gates strong with this book. So if there is any way. That you can support this book. Of course, as I will continue to say I am biased. I absolutely love and adore my son on a personal level, but of course, as a, as a PYP, um, product and in conjunction with my son, her team, it’s just so important for, to have this book and I want to be.

[00:28:46] Like the, the Mary Poppins where I just sprinkle your book out to everybody that I meet to be like, okay, like we’ve had a conversation. Cause I get into conversations just like Jen, I’m very, I get into heated, heated debates on a pretty regular basis around [00:29:00] allyship and all of the things. And so it’s just a great tool for people.

[00:29:03] So even if you feel like you are already kind of at that extreme end of an ally, And you feel like your work? Like I don’t, the work is never done. Like, I feel like I am a hardcore ally and yet there’s always something that we can learn. But if you feel like you’re in that position, where are you working far to an extreme on the ally continuum?

[00:29:21] You still like take this as an opportunity to bring it into your book club, to give it to a friend, to buy it for them family member, especially, um, You know, those family members that may be just now dabbling into like, Oh, wow, this is something I should be paying attention to. And they, they, they are genuinely at the very, very beginning of this, of this journey, but that’s the beauty of this book is that anyone, regardless of where you are on this journey, you can pick it up and you can learn something from it.

[00:29:45] So I encourage people to use it as a tool to give to other people. Even if you feel like yourself, you don’t actually need it.

[00:29:56] Maysa: [00:29:56] Have 

[00:29:56] Jenn B: [00:29:56] a great 

[00:29:56] Jenn: [00:29:56] day. 

[00:30:00] [00:29:59] Maysa: [00:29:59] Yeah, 

[00:30:02] Jenn: [00:30:02] I’m sure. So, yes, please go ahead. Go get the book today. We’re trying to launch do it, do some awesome stuff. Name of the book is being asked is beyond ally, the pursuit of racial justice. You can put it in, um, and just even put a doctor Mesa Ackbar next to it and Walla the book will come up and my sister.

[00:30:19] Website is at the bottom scrolling along as well. Beautiful. Thank you all. 

[00:30:29] Yes.